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  #1  
Old 05-14-2016, 01:06 PM
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Grayshadow95 Grayshadow95 is offline
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Trying new steel, have questions

Finally finished my wife's new kitchen cabinet, and have gotten back to having fun!

I bought some D2 and W2 from NJSB and learned quickly that it is much easier to work than old wood rasps! Good quality and consistency in the material. However, the flat sides are a little bit rough. Looks like dimples from rolling it out flat.

I am making a knife to order from the W2, and I want it to look good. Here is a photo after shaping and grinding the primary bevel:

Attachment 15903

Hopefully you can see what I'm talking about on the sides.

My question: Since I don't have a large belt sander, (it's a 1x42) what is the best way to flatten the sides parallel?

I've been working at it by attaching some 80 grit emery paper to my steel table saw top and sanding them smooth, but it is one heck of a lot of work!
Any suggestions???

My other question is what temperature do I heat treat this blade steel?

Last edited by Grayshadow95; 12-02-2017 at 11:12 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-14-2016, 01:17 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Heat that steel to non magnetic then quench in oil. After hardening the steel will grind differently, I think part of the issue is the state the steel is in (Normalized, spheriodized) that will change when the steel is heat treated.

The D2 makes wonderful knives, it is a major pain to ht and should be sent to someone who can do it. You cannot HT D2 at home. A lot of makers stay away from D2 because it is so fussy.

As far as the grinding, it just comes with practice.
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Old 05-14-2016, 02:25 PM
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Grayshadow95 Grayshadow95 is offline
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I think you misunderstand my question, it's not the primary grind that I'm concerned with but the flat sides. The striations on the primary grind are from the 80 grit belt use to remove the bulk of the material for the blade edge. That photo was taken before I switch to 150 then 220 belts, and before hand finishing with 400 and 800 grit paper. I do ~90 percent of the blade shaping before heat treat. The W2 came from the supplier with small dimples all the way along the sides, and one side is worse than the other.

I use an electric kiln that is capable of reaching over 2000 degrees F for HT, and canola oil to quench. The kiln heats the steel slowly and evenly in about 45 - 60 minutes for a consistent temperature throughout, then holds it at temperature for as long as is necessary.
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Old 05-14-2016, 02:42 PM
RedstickJP RedstickJP is offline
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NJSB should be able to give you the data sheet on the steel, telling you the correct temperature for HT. As far as the sides hand sanding is probably your best bet unless you have a palm sander. I tend to sand the flats smooth prior to grinding my bevels on a partial height grind, that way I don't worry about slipping and messing up the finish on the bevel. And in the future you can look into buying steel precision ground, won't be any dimples that way.
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Old 05-14-2016, 02:46 PM
RedstickJP RedstickJP is offline
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Not sure how accurate this is since I haven't worked with w2, but a Google search found this

http://cintool.com/catalog/Water_Hardening/W2.pdf
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  #6  
Old 05-14-2016, 11:45 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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First of all you will need go get an assay sheet from your supplier for the W2 that you have. If you got it from The New Jersey Steel Baron it's listed on his web site. It also comes 98% spherodized so I wouldn't anneal it. Actually I would never do a critical anneal as it causes the carbides to form plates which can cause problems with drilling and grinding.

Remember that the data sheets like you linked to generally refer to pieces of steel thicker than a knife blade so the numbers may not apply. A soak of 10-15 minutes at 1450?-1475? sounds about right. You can quench in brine but one of the fast commercial quenching oils is a better bet by all reports.

I would also let the steel cool to room temperature before putting it into the tempering oven. Some makers who have used 1095, first cousin to W2, have found that it needed just a little more time for the last of the austenite to convert to martensite.

Doug


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Old 05-15-2016, 05:23 AM
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Get a new Nicholson Handi File (one with the paddle handle), it has two different tooth patterns - coarse and fine. Should be a sticky some where around here on how to draw file a blade. Find it, read it, then practice a bit on some scrap steel. You can draw file the "dimples" out nicely and cleanly getting a true flat with a little practice. Then hand sand finish to preference. Easy-peasy.
Don't need no stinkin grinder!
You really want to do this pre-heattreat.....much much easier than when it's hardened.

Should you not be able to find the sticky, send me a pm with your email address and I'll send you a few pics of an easy set up for draw filing and hand sanding.
(Pretty busy right here before the Blade Show so be patient)


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  #8  
Old 05-15-2016, 08:48 AM
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Grayshadow95 Grayshadow95 is offline
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Thanks for the responses guys!

I went to the NJSB web site, and the response was "Heat treat data coming soon." Bummer.

I have a 1/4 sheet finish sander, but I was concerned that it might round the edges. Was also concerned that the result wouldn't be flat.
I make a holding fixture out of hard wood cut to hold the steel at the precise angle I want, so the blank has to be flat or the grind will be ripply.
Will have to check into the cost of precision ground steel.

I'll try to find that sticky on draw filing, that sounds helpful. I have a good selection of files that are sharp, I don't worry about handles because I turn them from scrap wood to fit my hand.

Here is what the blade looks like now after a lot of hand work!

Attachment 15904

Last edited by Grayshadow95; 12-02-2017 at 11:12 AM.
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  #9  
Old 05-15-2016, 01:29 PM
Shipshores Shipshores is offline
 
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I have been working with W2 and D2 from NJSB. I just recently posted on blade forum about my testing under edge retention. W2 from Aldo will need to be normalized before heat treat. I did everything the same one without normalizing and one with. Non normalizing gave me 6 cuts through manila rope before losing its edge. The normalized one gave me 100 cuts and still shaved hair. It was also substantially tougher. I was amazed at the difference.
Normalize at 1650 for 15min cool to black. Then do it at 1500 for 15min and cool to black and finally 1350 for 15min and quench or cool to black. I then heat treat at 1450 and also tried 1475 for 20 min. For my oven 1475 worked much better.
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Old 05-15-2016, 01:33 PM
Shipshores Shipshores is offline
 
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D2, I just finished testing a knife today. I got 100 cuts on manila rope and the edge was as good as before i started. 1850 for 30min and plate quenched. Tempered 425F twice 2hrs each cycle.
For my flats i just use a strong magnet on the to hold the blade flat on the platon and progress through the belts same as for the bevels. I have a 2x72 though.
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Old 05-16-2016, 04:15 AM
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Obviously a lot of careful hand work, it is looking pretty good GS.


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  #12  
Old 05-16-2016, 09:12 AM
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Grayshadow95 Grayshadow95 is offline
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Shipshores, that's quite a HT process for W2, but if it results in a good blade that's what is important!
The D2 process is closer to what I've used before on old wood rasps to HT after shaping.
Yes, I drew the temper out of the rasps before shaping. That process was more like what you referred to as "normalizing" the W2.

By "cool to black" do you mean air cool back to room temperature?

Not familiar with the term "plate quench".

Crex: yes, a lot of hand work. The only parts I use the belt grinder for is rough shaping and grinding the primary bevel. It is gratifying to see it finally starting to look like a real knife!

The customer wants ebony for the grip panels, with a nickel-silver guard and pommel.
Since he wants a guard instead of bolsters, designing and fitting the guard & pommel was a bit of a chore! Had to cut a "mortise" into both pieces to match "tenons" on the blade . Messed up only once, turned 3/4 inch of nickel-silver into scrap . . .
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Old 05-16-2016, 11:24 AM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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Grayshadow, I've been using Aldo's W2 and will throw in my 2 cents as well. NORMALIZE NORMALIZE NORMALIZE! O1 doesn't need it, nor does A2 or D2. But 1084, 1095, 80CrV2, 52100 especially, and W2...all must be normalized. Why? Because they are coarse spheroidized. Nice and easy on machines, and files, but not when it comes time to harden. O1 comes fine spheroidized, almost always, no matter who you get it from...and does not need this procedure. But W2 and 52100 really must get the treatment. 1650f for a good soak, like 15 or 20 minutes, then air cool to black (or room temp if you want). This breaks up carbide networks......good. This also grows grain to some extent (it really doesn't grow much at all, because of the alloying present like Vanadium). But we can make the grain smaller. Since the carbides were taken care of at 1650f, we can now grow new grains on lower thermal cycles (smaller grain). So 1550f, cool to black. Then 1450f, cool to black. I like to add a subcritical cycle, 1350f, cool to black. Now you are ready to harden. For W2, 1475 is a good choice, soak for 10 minutes (no need to soak too long here because you've gotten everything ready for solution in the previous normalizing and thermal cycling), quench in P50 oil, or 130f canola if you don't have fast oil. W2 can take a brine quench, recommend if you go that route, do 3 seconds into brine, then finish in oil. IF, and I do mean IF, you reach max hardness out of quench, like 67, then a 400f temper might still be around 62HRC. I have to go to 425 or 430f to get down below file hardness.

About the above D2 HT. Because the austenetizing temp is so high, retained austenite must be dealt with somehow. If all you did was 1850f, soak, and a 425f temper, and no cryo or sub zero, then RA is going to massive in that blade. When aus temps are that high (IMHO anything above 1550), RA is going to be too high for the blades I think we are all trying to make (I don't want to go into how RA can be advantageous on the macro scale for toughness, but it is murder on the micro scale). RA should be minimized as much as possible. That is done in one of two ways, or both if you want. Cryo or sub zero must be done right after quench, or you can go to the secondary hardening tempers of 900f or what have you. For fine edge stability, we are learning to stay away from secondary hardening. So this means the way to go is 1850f, soak, quench, cryo or sub zero, low temp tempers. Anti-decarb is needed as well, or you'll have a massive layer of decarb to remove from the blade. Not to be confused with scale.

Plate quenching is just what it sounds like. Two aluminum plates are used to quench the blade, instead of oil. The pearlite curve for D2 is slow enough that plate quenching is fast enough.
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Old 05-16-2016, 11:51 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Cool to black can be a little misleading. It means to cool until all color is gone. However it doesn't indicate that the phase change back to ferrite has taken place so if you just go by the lack of color you could end up returning the steel to the to the fire or oven before all the austenite has converted and you could grow the grain in the steel. It would be better if you waited until the steel became magnetic again, indicating the phase change has occurred, before returning it to the heat. You could wait until it is cool enough to hold in your hand but it's not necessary.

Quench plates are thick aluminum plates that are clamped to air quenching blades fresh out of the oven to cool the blade and help keep them flat. Being that I don't deal with air quenching steels you will have to google it up to get more specific information.

On the handle, see if you can talk your customer out of the Ebony handle scales. All Ebonies will eventually crack or check. African Blackwood would be a good substitute if he wants a solid black handle. If he insists on the Ebony I would tell him in writing that the handle scales cannot be guaranteed and you will not replace them free of charge when they break.

All in all, you've produced a good looking blade and yes fitting the furniture can be a real pain in the back side.

Doug


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Old 05-16-2016, 12:22 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Just read Stuarts replay, I don't know how I missed it (I'll blame it on the computer gremlins). In my original post I said the steel doesn't need to be annealed because it comes annealed. What Stuart is describing is referred to as thermal cycling though it is often referred to as normalization, but that's a similar but differen process used to relieve stress in the steel. As he said, you use the first soak to dissolve the carbides and release the carbon to go into solution in the austenite. The second and third cycles are used to refine the grain.

Doug


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