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  #16  
Old 07-20-2016, 10:20 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Thanks Ron. I do remember reading that statement somewhere before.
Ronnie
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  #17  
Old 07-21-2016, 10:51 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Scott: It wouldn't matter except this is historical record for General Westmoreland. That post referenced makes it appear his knife was taken to him while is was in Vietnam, sometime in 1964-66... whatever "mid-1960s no earlier than 1964" means.

(a) It just plain isn't true;

(b) There was no need to start this... he should have just shut up and showed his pictures (which are nice and I am appreciative);

(c) No font stamp ever made looks like the "1" and "6" below. I challenge you to find a Johnson sheath with a model/length number anything like these...I challenge you to show a picture of ANY stamped number that looks like the numbers pictured below. Truth is those numbers look to be lightly scratched into the leather with a nail or other type stylus;

(d) You say this looks just like something you have done on a sheath with a "stamp"? ... Well, please show me and document it...(but, were you stamping sheaths in 1963?) Mere avowals no longer carry weight.








I say again:

- Westmoreland became deputy in Vietnam Jan. 1964, and actually went there earlier, and there are pictures that show him with his knife early in 1964 when he became deputy MACV cmdr, maybe earlier;

- There is no way to identify a Johnson sheath as being "1964" or "mid-1960s." Model 1 "A" sheaths remained unchanged from mid-1963 when the model/length numbers were added, to about 1972 when the model numbers were dropped. His statement about identifying the sheath to midid-1960s no earlier than 1964" ... that is pure BS...and you should know it.

- There is a wealth of data and backup ID-ing sheaths with his characteristics to first half 1963 whether you acknowledge it or not...and that fits the narrative of his knife too.

Scott, you may think you are standing up for a friend. But in this case you covering for a foolish and unprofessional off-hand comment from someone who will not back down when called out apparently because to his ego. Instead, he would rather screw up the historical record just to cover his ill-thought-out statement that has no basis or support from published research.

Normally I would let this pass... but not about General Westmoreland who I thought the world of when I was in Vietnam, and I still do.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-21-2016 at 11:31 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07-21-2016, 11:40 AM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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Jack, I'm not getting into a he said/she said pissing contest with you, your search for information on this subject is second to none, my only statement was that the numbers weren't SCRATCHED on, so for you to call me out on anything else is assinine, to say the least...here's your challenge, you always ask for someone else to prove YOU wrong...how about you show ME another sheath with the numbers SCRATCHED on..fair enough? And since you can say that nothing I say carries any weight "anymore" because of my argument, I guess I can extend the same insult your way Sir...
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  #19  
Old 07-21-2016, 12:05 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Scott... not calling you out. Your opinion is fine. This is not personal, it is for historical truth.

BUT... your name was quoted to back up that statement and apparently to support his declaration of 1964 at earliest .... that is the only argument he offered... your name. No data was cited, not examples shown.. Then when I posted the corrections here complete with references, and Ron posted it there, you posted here something that appears to defend the indefensible.

Re: your request of me. I have not found other scratched numbers, but then again I haven't looked though I bet there were some. Oddly, I do think I remember a true model/length numbers stamp that was placed in the butterfly of a Johnson sheath where these numbers are. In any case, this sheath is of the class of baby-dot sans-numbers, mostly made in first half of 1963.

A friend should be able to tell a friend that he is wrong. In my opinion, he should not have made that off-the-wall statement, and he should not have dragged you and others into the defending his indefensible position, and he should retract that statement gracefully.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-21-2016 at 03:46 PM.
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  #20  
Old 07-21-2016, 12:20 PM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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Just went and re-read Cap's post regarding me and Michael, and in no way dies he insinuate we back him up on any other aspect of the post EXCEPT the way the numbers were applied...
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  #21  
Old 07-21-2016, 01:45 PM
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OK ... peace.
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  #22  
Old 07-21-2016, 03:24 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Here is the only sheath that I own with numbers stamped within the butterfly stitches....and it's a Hieser with similar font.
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  #23  
Old 07-22-2016, 07:47 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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I recently won the following auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RANDALL-Made...vip=true&rt=nc

The dead mint sheath came with a mint yellow printed Combination Crystolon stone, which alone is worth the price I paid. Net-net the sheath was essentially a freebie. It just so happens to have the model / length numbers stamped into the butterfly. So far the only other one to show up is a fighter owned by Mitchell. In my case, the depth of the stamping is normal:

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  #24  
Old 07-22-2016, 11:09 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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That is a great sheath Ron and a heck of a shrewd buy, especially given your M-3 collection. I remember seeing a Model 1 sheath with stamped numbers in the butterfly a few years ago (not Mitchell's), but apparently I didn't save a picture.

Here are three sheaths with numbers in butterfly... left is Ron's, middle is General Westmoreland's, right is Mitchell's. I carefully used a measurement of each Randall stamp top to bottom to try to insure the pictures are the same scale. They are as close to scale as I can get, though angle perspective of the pictures of Ron and Mitchell's sheath has probably introduced a variable in the width of the stamp.



These are enlarged numbers, also kept to scale as best I could do: top Ron's, middle General Westmoreland's, bottom Mitchell's.



I suppose someone could think it possible all were stamped using a die. It is possible that the General's was scratched-marked as I believe. Everyone is free to come to their own conclusion but I think the visual is pretty conclusive. What is a shame is now certain people feel obligated to take a political stand on a technical issue.... why?

What does it matter if the General's sheath was stamped or scratched? It simply means that if stamped by Johnson, it is LIKELY to be after mid-1963. If scratched-marked it is SOMEWHAT LIKELY to have been made pre-mid-1963, but of course making the sheath may have been sometime earlier than the presentation of the knife.

The difference in these time period could be as little as a few days/months or it could be a difference in years. The whole exercise could be moot if someone comes up with a date the knife was presented to General Westmoreland. In that case this becomes an exercise in historical accuracy.

Interesting to notice the stitching especially in the interior of the butterfly of both Ron's sheath and Mitchell's. In my opinion, the careful stitch radius and the interior double stitch line is a marker for a particular sheath maker who made a lot of the earliest Johnson's. This marker is occasionally seen on some Johnson sheaths as late as mid/late 1960s.

Here are some examples from the "Magic Randall" of very early Johnson's that exhibit this stitching.





Brown button Heiser west on left, brown button Johnson east on right, no model numbers


Regards.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-22-2016 at 01:04 PM.
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  #25  
Old 07-22-2016, 02:10 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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If I didn't know better, it looks like some of my 3rd grade penmanship! But in 63 I was just starting kindergarten........So that mystery is solved!
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  #26  
Old 07-22-2016, 05:07 PM
CharlieR CharlieR is offline
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Thanks for all this info guys. My sheath has no numbers, I looked closely. BUT, there is a name STAMPED on the backside of the blade. I am assuming that this must have been done before heat treat--was this done at the shop?
Also, the owner of this piece was a vetaran and lived in Alaska in the early 60's and also that is when he bought the knife according to my source. Anyway, I have attached a pic of the name on the blade---done at the shop????
Let me know your feelings.
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  #27  
Old 07-22-2016, 05:37 PM
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That is not "stamped," it is most likely acid-etched after the blade was completed, before final polishing. This was most likely done at the shop which offered this as an option.

If I were you I would do a search, "obituary for C. L. Barnes veteran" or some such. You will get quite a few but reading them you could probably find one that is the most likely for original owner. A clue could be "avid outdoorsman," "camper, hiker" etc. in the obit as well as "Veteran." If you are really curious, you could write a family member and inquire if they can confirm the original oownership of the knife.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-22-2016 at 05:51 PM.
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  #28  
Old 07-22-2016, 05:41 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/car...?pid=145733207
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  #29  
Old 07-22-2016, 08:06 PM
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Here another candidate, maybe a little more likely given age...

http://www.wellsfuneralhome.com/obit...dler-NC/765726
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  #30  
Old 07-23-2016, 12:12 PM
CharlieR CharlieR is offline
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Neither of those folks are him, but thanks for looking. I have found his family and will see what more info I can gather from them. Will also get better pic of the stamp.
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