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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 05-08-2007, 01:19 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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EBK deal with Buck Knives is down the tube

Hi Gang!

Just got back from Seattle, WA. last evening. Had a great week with Lyle and our six students. Although my brain is now "oatmeal", and my body is telling me to rest, I feel good about what we accomplished.

Now to the news. Last year at Blade West, both Lyle and I had a representative of Buck Knives approach us and requested a knife from each of us for consideration as a collaboration. The fella took a folder from Lyle, and an EBK from me.
When I arrived at Lyle's a week ago, he told me that he had gotten his knife back, and showed me the letter that Buck had sent along with it. The letter basically was chastising Lyle for submitting a knife, and telling him not to do that anymore because it messes up their R&D!

Well, lo and behold, I got home yesterday, and the exact same thing is awaiting me! Now I'm not at all upset that Buck decided against producing the EBK, but what got me riled up was that I got an exact duplicate of the letter that Lyle got, signed by somebody that I've never even heard of. And to top it off my knife is sent back to me stuck in the sheath, and dropped inside a paper envelope! No phone call, no take a hike, no communication at all.

From what knowledge I have obtained, it seems like Buck's right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. And to not even have the common courtesy to communicate with me on the issue is inexcusable. As you can tell, I'm still a bit riled. But as for right now, theres a huge black mark on my list for Buck Knives. They can go play their corporate games with somebody else.


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Old 05-08-2007, 03:20 PM
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Weird story - but not uncommon in today's corporate world. As you point out, the left hand often doesn't know what the right hand is doing. (Worse than that, the left often doesn't know the right hand exists!)

There's also the factor that so few business people have any class. Apply for a job and if you're not hired chances are 99% you won't get a rejection letter. Same is true for a complaint or a complement. And if they do write, the poor basic education they received will make you think the letter was written by a moron.

Buck was always a big favorite of mine, but I must admit I was pretty unhappy to hear about their production shifting overseas. Trying to compete against the cheap junk with cheap stuff of your own will eventually suck the company dry.


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Old 05-08-2007, 05:37 PM
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Julie Coffey Julie Coffey is offline
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Ed I'm so sorry to hear how that ended up. They certainly aren't winning any brownie points amongst the knife makers with business practices like that. Any other makers worth their salt approached by them now will certainly look at them with extreme apprehension if not a bit of disgust.

Glad you had a good time in WA!


J


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Old 05-08-2007, 05:42 PM
jdm61 jdm61 is offline
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Makes you wonder if there is a niche for a "co-op" type organization or an independent company to make knives like these. Maybe putting something together to say pick the carcass of a failed company like a Camillus and buy there equipment. It seems pretty obvious that there is a decent sized market for these factory made, custom maker desinged knives and Ed's story is not the first one that I have heard regarding disatisfaction with manyfacturers, althoug the rumors that I have heard involved problems after the knives were being produced.
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Old 05-08-2007, 06:13 PM
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David Broadwell David Broadwell is offline
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Ed,

Oatmeal is good for you!

My first experience with a potential collaboration for a knife manufacturer was similar to yours, although I didn't send them a knife. A rep asked me at the Guild show in the early 90s to send pictures so she could show the directors. Being married to a graphic artist who was in advertising, I had a nice presentation with about 6 pictures. About 2-3 months after sending in the pics I got them back with a letter from a totally different person saying they appreciated me contacting them but that they weren't doing any collaborations with makers at that time! I'm sure it was for the best though. The knife company was Franklin Mint. After seeing the Dracula folder and some others I am ok with it!

Made a prototype for Gerber after Ken Onion talked to them on my behalf. They kept it for about a year and finally sent it back with some oddball thrust washer in it. I was told by the product engineer that the bigwigs in Finland rejected it because they just didn't understand why anyone would want to collect an artistic knife! Been carrying that knife for several years.

I was contacted by Lone Wolf Knives and did a design for them. They played around with MIMing the handles, got screwed over by the outside contracter who oversold his abilities, and let the whole project sit in limbo. They even bought enough Norris stainless damascus to make an initial run of 100 knives.

As you can imagine, I'm about burned out on the idea of collaborating with a factory!

Hope your EBK arrived without damage. You'd think Buck would know how to ship a knife. Sounds like Buck has placed their corporate head in a dark and smelly place!

David
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Old 05-08-2007, 08:08 PM
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Gary Mulkey Gary Mulkey is offline
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I'm sorry to hear about their treatment of you. Though we haven't met, I respect you as top quality maker as well as someone who I could easily call friend. It sounds like you are better off not being associated with Buck.

Gary
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Old 05-08-2007, 09:36 PM
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A long time ago now, my son sent me a Buck 110 folding hunter. That POS made me decide I could make a better knife. And I never looked back.
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Old 05-09-2007, 08:03 AM
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I suppose I should be thankful. As Don mentioned, it was also a Buck 110 folder that got me started in knifemaking too. When I was 12 years old, a friend and I worked all summer in order to get enough money to purchase new knives for the upcoming trapping season. We each purchased a Buck 110 folder and thought we were "the cock of the walk" with our new knives. The let down occurred with our first catch that trapping season....a 52lb beaver. He sharpened his knife 4 times, and I sharpened mine 5 times to get through that one beaver! From that point on I was in the hunt for a better knife. From grinding down whatever I thought would make a good knife in our farm shop, to "borrowing" my grandma's kitchen knives. Its amazing to think that one situation with a factory knife brought me to where I am now. Guess it was meant to be.
As I mentioned in my initial post, I'm not too distraught about Buck deciding not to produce the EBKs, and the more I think about it, it might be a blessing in disguise. Its likely they would have done it with cheap steel, and my EBK would have wound up being just another poor performing knife from Buck.
If they treat everyone like they have me, I'm surprised that any knifemaker would deal with them. I'll leave it be for now, and see if anyone one at Buck makes an effort to right what has happened. I won't be holding my breath.


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Old 05-09-2007, 08:46 AM
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For what it's worth, Ed, i think you're probably better off. Your name on a knife made out of 420 steel wouldn't be good for you.
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  #10  
Old 05-09-2007, 09:31 PM
ragingwolf66 ragingwolf66 is offline
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Ed,

Sorry to hear about the Buck deal. I do agree with Don Robinson about the 430 gig, aside from the fact that they would be sent for manufacture somewhere on the pacific rim. Are tou going to auction off that T & E knife????
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Old 05-09-2007, 10:30 PM
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Bummer, but like Rick pointed out, it hardly suprises me coming from today's corporate world! I still haven't been told I was "let go" from a govt project even though I "haven't been approved for hours" since March!

Something that I *am* suprised about.....I now know one other person who has skinned out beavers as a teenager! The pic I just posted in the knife gallery forum is set on a TX beaver pelt from 1989!


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Old 05-10-2007, 02:43 PM
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When I was in college my research advisor was one of several people contacted by S.E. Johnson Wax to present current research to them as they were looking for new products to develop for home air fresheners. My advisor presented one item--for which he had a patent--which was basically a ceramic capsule he used for drug delivery in medical research. The company told him, "No thanks, can't use it." Six months later they came out with a new product--a miniature ceramic vase you hung from your rear-view mirror in your car that you filled with liquid perfume. Exact same concept, and they stole it from my professor. He tried suing, but the university legal department told him that his patent wasn't broad enough outside of medical applications to sue over it's infringement.

So Ed, don't throw that letter away. You never know what "coincidence" Buck's next knife will have in common with your EBK.
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Old 05-10-2007, 02:56 PM
Greg obach Greg obach is offline
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thats what i was afraid of...



buck 110... got you started... and a cold steel folder got me going after i broke it cutting the cardboard tubes from christmas wrapping... and i was called a liar when i phoned it in ... suppose to stand a 120lbs... yah right... anyhow... i really understand your start into knife making.. .. i think it rings true for more than a few people..... specially when you grew up thrifty and know what a real dollar is worth


Greg

don't worry.....your knives are sweet..... i can't see buck helping out other than lowering the quality..... big time
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  #14  
Old 05-11-2007, 12:01 AM
George Stoba George Stoba is offline
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Ed, I'm sorry to hear about the EBK deal and the way they handled it. I know you were looking forward to working with Buck and expected a lot more from them.
If it makes you feel any better, I would never by a 440C EBK Made in China.
I'm still regretting not getting that pair of EBK's you showed me!
George
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Old 05-11-2007, 08:12 AM
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Just picture Ed's reaction to seeing his EKB stamped "Surgical Stainless"

Oh well, they have to do something with those melted down Yugo bumpers.


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