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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #1  
Old 12-03-2004, 02:52 PM
eutectoid eutectoid is offline
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Damascus Metallurgy

Greetings,

I'm a new member, and have just begun making my second knife...

I have a formal background in Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science (and teach Materials Science, occasionally, at a college).

I have always been facinated with Damascus (both Wootz and pattern welded), and I would like to learn more as well as do some formal research in the area. In addition to the Professional Journals (The Minerals, Metals & Materials Society etc.) what recommendations can everyone give for what research has already been done in the area?

I assume this post would be of interest to others in the forum as well. =)

Thanks in advance,
Brian Cusack

PS: I'll post pics of my damascus cheese knife (maple burl handle) when it's done.
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  #2  
Old 12-03-2004, 04:28 PM
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mete mete is offline
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I am a metallurgist and there are a couple of others in the forum too.We try to balance those who quench their blades under the full moon with goat urine with the blade aligned north /south. Welcome .
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  #3  
Old 12-03-2004, 04:47 PM
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Welcome Eutectoid.

I'm not a metallurgist and I don't have a goat. Bummer.

I do like learning tho. I've learned about things like austenite and how to spell BCC, but I still don't if I'm supposed to use true north or magnetic. True north aligns better with the earth's self awareness, but magentic north works better for grain structure.

But, I'm always interesting in anything mete and some of the other metals guys have to say!

Steve


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  #4  
Old 12-03-2004, 05:59 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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Welcome, Brian! Good place here for both myth and demystifying!

I wonder if the goat urine is just misunderstood ancient wisdom because it was an easy source of warm brine????

There I go again, eh, Steve???
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Old 12-25-2004, 12:34 PM
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GHEzell GHEzell is offline
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Merry Christmas!

Don's got a great collection of links that might be of interest to you in the technical section...Don Fogg's site
The viking sword site has a good article on damascus... viking sword
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2004, 04:09 PM
Jesse Frank Jesse Frank is offline
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Check out the metallurgy forum at swordforums as well. That has some good info as well as some of the best and most respected guys helping out.
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  #7  
Old 01-07-2005, 10:06 AM
eutectoid eutectoid is offline
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thank you for the warm welcomes! =)

I've been reading around and learning quite a bit about damascus (and loving it)!
I guess a refined question I have is:
Is there a reference for the strength of a weld given carbon contents of the plates at different temperatures and hammer forces?
(yep... loaded question...)
Basically I'd like to investigate ideal conditions for forge welding of different steels, apply that to a theoretical model of damascus, and compare the results to real life samples.

I would think the resulting data would be of interest to many bladesmiths.
My problem is, I haven't found too many scientific resources that touch on these subjects, and I was curious if anyone knows which direction I should be looking...

Thanks!

PS: finished the cheese knife, and will post pictures soon.
PPS: I would think urine would be an interesting quench given it's salinity, but the nitrates might through things off (and I can only imagine the smell...) Direction might make the blade very slightly magnetic, and the full moon, well, I imagine forging on a crisp country night under the brightness of the moon without the need for lighting would be quite an experience =)
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Old 01-07-2005, 11:13 AM
Jesse Frank Jesse Frank is offline
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I think there is a study on solid state welding done by Tylecote. I would assume that there are studies done by asm or someone else in industry since they do it, too.

Last edited by Jesse Frank; 01-07-2005 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 01-07-2005, 11:24 AM
Jesse Frank Jesse Frank is offline
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Yea, It's "solid phase welding of metals"

here's a link

if I can figure it out........

Link
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  #10  
Old 01-08-2005, 06:02 PM
Quenchcrack Quenchcrack is offline
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Damascus Welding Conditions

Eutectoid, welcome to the forum. I am a Metallurgical Engineer also. I do not make damascus or pattern welded steel (my little gasser just isn't hot enough) but you are probably going to find out that there is no one definition of pattern welded steel and the compostions vary widely. About all I can say regarding ideal conditions would be to suggest that if you could forge in a vacuum, you could make some pretty good forge welds. Personally, I only use goat urine from goats that were trained to face magnetic north as they urinated.


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Old 01-08-2005, 10:25 PM
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That isn't too bad when the wind is from the north, but you have to walk them around till the wind changes if it is from the south (that is to make sure you don't waste any). Also, old goats are the best because they are the strongest (smelling I guess)


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  #12  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:27 PM
Ron Claiborne Ron Claiborne is offline
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Welcome Brian to the forums and I hope you are having fun and learning about wootz and pattern welded steel .
It can be quite a pleasant undertaking .
I think you will find a few links that dealing with this over on the Damascus room in this forum we have listed a few sits or links that will get you started .
If you desire to learn the process of making or pattern development the net is loaded with it and I can help in some degree if you want to extend that research . I have made pattern steel for over 15 years and have studied it with a passion ,
To me it?s a art form and a study that will keep me one my toes for the rest of my life , and I like to see some one like your self taking it as a research project . There is countless books to help
asking questions is the best way to get help even if it?s the which way the goat urinated or holding the
poor beast due north I know all this is in good fun and I personaly have found it to be a myth, dont ask .
I think with your real desire and that to research DAMASCUS STEEL and histroy and heat treating does play a part ,a big part
there are lot in this forum that can and will ,help
The only reason that I wanted to add to this thread it seamed to die.
A few sits to read
1. http://www.techfak.uni-kiel.de/matwi...ed/t5_1_1.html
http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/damas.htm

as I said they are countless books on the subject just do a web search and let us know if we can help

BOWIE
my name is Ron Claiborne im a knifemaker I am 20days Damascus free


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Last edited by Ron Claiborne; 01-25-2005 at 11:47 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-26-2005, 01:44 AM
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North-South

While I don't have a technical education, I'v been in this "business" of bladesmithing over 15 years.
Can't say anything about a goat urine ( Fizo may be right ) but there is a tradition to quench in the N-S direction. So I do it allways in the same way. It's just not wise to throw away hundreds (thousands?) of years experiences even if you don't have any scientific explanations.
Sometimes(not allways), when quenched in other direction, blade will bend. But when it bends it bends ALLWAYS towards N-S line. In other words - When quenched NW it will bend to the right, when quenched NE - left.

To Steve - magnetic north ( or south ) or actually direction of the magnetic field.


The answer may be in the way crystalline structure forms


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