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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 11-18-2016, 08:16 AM
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dpratt07 dpratt07 is offline
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Former guitar maker in WV, have a few questions, looking for criticism

Hi my name is Dave, from Pennsboro WV. I have been making knives some time now and decided to look for some experienced criticism, advice, suggestions, etc. I'm a luthier (guitar maker) by trade and also a union operator.

As for tools, I'm a pretty lucky guy. My ancestry is made up of blacksmiths, sheet metal workers, boilermakers and wood workers. So I have an industrial sized wood shop and welding shop under one roof. My belt sander is only 4 x 36" but it seems to do the job. My forge is small and simple with stacked fire brick but soon I plan to build an 6"x18" propane fired glory hole forge.

I'm having troubled getting a a sharp distinct blade angle or I guess plunge is what you call it. It always ends up angling in from the spine to the edge with no precise line. My question is, do you guys make a jig to get such a fine visible line for the start of the angle ? or a guide ? If so, do have any design ideas for the jig or guide ?

Also I am using 1/8" and 3/16" 1080 from Admiral for my knives. Forging at a shade above non magnetic then quenching in motor oil mixed 20% with ATF. I know,I know, I should stop being a tight ass and buy quenching oil. I then temper twice for 2 hours at 435 degrees. The knives seem to get scary sharp ( to me anyway) and hold an edge pretty well.

Also, how would I go about having them tested. I have read where guys send their knives out to go through field testing in return for some sort of rating, and I'm interested in having that done.

Here are the different models I've made so far. Thanks ahead for the criticism, suggestions, and advice.

-Dave









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Old 11-18-2016, 09:37 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Dave, welcome to the forum! You clearly have the skills to become a great knife maker. That said, you are in need of some pointers.

For your problem with plunge cuts we sometimes use a jig called a file guide. All that consists of is two pieces of hardened steel (1/8" is thick enough) that are long enough to fit across your blade with enough room at each end for a screw. Tighten the screws and clamp the jig to your blade. With care, this jig will last through many knives. Eventually, you'll find you can do the plunge cuts without the jig.

Scrap the used motor oil. There is nothing worse I can think of for quenching a blade. Replace it with canola, works fine for 1080.

"A propane fired glory hole" sounds like a foundry rather than a forge. Hopefully you have a good idea on how to build a forge for knife making, if not I have a DVD that will explain it. Hint: if your design involves lots of bricks you need the DVD.

No, don't send your knives out for field testing until you have done your own testing. Nothing screws up a reputation faster than a failed knife in the field. Do your own testing first, here's some of the methods commonly used:

First, the brass rod test. Use it first to find out if your edge is too hard or too soft.

Chop or shave your way through a fresh 2x4. Do this bare handed. This test the edge AND the cutting geometry of your blade (yours looks like the geometry needs improvement) as well as the ergonomics of your handle. If you get blisters or can't hold on to the knife then re-think the handle design.

Sharpen the knife, and count slices of cardboard before it goes dull. Slice a specific length. Compare to a good commercially made knife of similar design (yours should be much better). Duplicate this test with hemp rope.

Finally, clamp the first third of the blade between two pieces of hard wood in a vise, put a pipe over the handle (and safety googles over your eyes) and slowly bend the blade until it snaps. Note how far it bends. Examine the grain, it should be light grey and very fine (if not, you need to refine your heat treatment).

And on that temper cycle, one hour is sufficient for 1080, let it cool in still air to room temp, and then temper one more hour and you're done ...


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Old 11-18-2016, 07:30 PM
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dpratt07 dpratt07 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Dave, welcome to the forum! You clearly have the skills to become a great knife maker. That said, you are in need of some pointers.

For your problem with plunge cuts we sometimes use a jig called a file guide. All that consists of is two pieces of hardened steel (1/8" is thick enough) that are long enough to fit across your blade with enough room at each end for a screw. Tighten the screws and clamp the jig to your blade. With care, this jig will last through many knives. Eventually, you'll find you can do the plunge cuts without the jig.

Scrap the used motor oil. There is nothing worse I can think of for quenching a blade. Replace it with canola, works fine for 1080.

"A propane fired glory hole" sounds like a foundry rather than a forge. Hopefully you have a good idea on how to build a forge for knife making, if not I have a DVD that will explain it. Hint: if your design involves lots of bricks you need the DVD.

No, don't send your knives out for field testing until you have done your own testing. Nothing screws up a reputation faster than a failed knife in the field. Do your own testing first, here's some of the methods commonly used:

First, the brass rod test. Use it first to find out if your edge is too hard or too soft.

Chop or shave your way through a fresh 2x4. Do this bare handed. This test the edge AND the cutting geometry of your blade (yours looks like the geometry needs improvement) as well as the ergonomics of your handle. If you get blisters or can't hold on to the knife then re-think the handle design.

Sharpen the knife, and count slices of cardboard before it goes dull. Slice a specific length. Compare to a good commercially made knife of similar design (yours should be much better). Duplicate this test with hemp rope.

Finally, clamp the first third of the blade between two pieces of hard wood in a vise, put a pipe over the handle (and safety googles over your eyes) and slowly bend the blade until it snaps. Note how far it bends. Examine the grain, it should be light grey and very fine (if not, you need to refine your heat treatment).

And on that temper cycle, one hour is sufficient for 1080, let it cool in still air to room temp, and then temper one more hour and you're done ...

Thanks Ray ! I will get right on making the jig and ditching the motor oil. As for the forge I may have worded it wrong. I'm basically going to make the same forge Atlas sells. No sense in buying it when I can make it I suppose.

I will also start the testing immediately. I wasn't sure if sending the blades of was the proper thing to do but I'm glad you gave me some assurance I don't need to right now. I should start researching proper blade geometry as well.

Thanks for the information. Exactly what I was looking for.
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Old 11-18-2016, 08:08 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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If you're going to copy Atlas, copy their Budget Forge but scrap that burner and add a forced air burner which you can also build easily for only a little more cost if you can find a suitable blower motor. If you can't find a blower motor you can build that too. A forced air burner is much easier to get to function correctly and in most cases they produce more heat than a 'casual' atmospheric burner like the one they provide ...


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Old 11-18-2016, 08:12 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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One thing I did to clean up those plunge lines was to cut out notches in the face. Since the edges of the grinders face is round so to are the plunge lines going to blur. Since that time I've made several mods to my 4x36, even allowing the use of 2" and 1" wide belts as weld as doing hollow grinds with the equivalent of up to a 12" wheel.
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Old 11-19-2016, 10:09 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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I would say you are much better off buildeing a forge out of something of a metal shell then koa wool and satinite, I tred a few different design types one similar to the atlas it worked OK but once I made a proper one (after watching rays video) it worked soooo much better than any other type I tried all you need is a metal shell and insulation for it just as easy to make as the atlas
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Old 11-23-2016, 05:28 AM
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Might find, when you start testing your blades, that 430 temper on 1080 is a bit high. In other words the blades will get a bit too soft to hold an edge for very long with that steel. Do your testing first as Ray described before changing anything (other than the oil). If too "soft" then drop your temper heat to 360 and test your blade hardness. Too hard, bump the heat in increments of 15 until you get it where you want it.

Note: This is all relative to how accurate your temp gauge is and what kind of oven you are using to control that heat level. Kitchen ovens are notoriously way off in maintaining a constant even heat.

You want to warm the canola oil to around 120 before quench for best results. Use a candy T-meter to check heat of oil.

ps - you don't happen to know "Grave Digger"? He's up in your neck of the woods.


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  #8  
Old 11-30-2016, 08:21 PM
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dpratt07 dpratt07 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crex View Post
Might find, when you start testing your blades, that 430 temper on 1080 is a bit high. In other words the blades will get a bit too soft to hold an edge for very long with that steel. Do your testing first as Ray described before changing anything (other than the oil). If too "soft" then drop your temper heat to 360 and test your blade hardness. Too hard, bump the heat in increments of 15 until you get it where you want it.

Note: This is all relative to how accurate your temp gauge is and what kind of oven you are using to control that heat level. Kitchen ovens are notoriously way off in maintaining a constant even heat.

You want to warm the canola oil to around 120 before quench for best results. Use a candy T-meter to check heat of oil.

ps - you don't happen to know "Grave Digger"? He's up in your neck of the woods.
I just built another round of ten knives. Since my last post, Ive made a bit larger scale version of the atlas forge with fiber frack and it works perfectly for me. I also as suggested switched to canola.
As for the temper I seem to be having good luck with my temper heat but like you said, the the oven could be way off. That skinning knife in the first pictures has gone through 4 deer so far and I havent sharpened it. Its still not something I want to get too complacent with, it would do damage.

I also started testing them. My blade angle was in need of some re engineering to put it lightly. The handles were also a little thinner than most people would prefer as well.

My issue now is my metal supplier. Texasknife just isnt cutting it with the shipping. I am thinking of using Admiral, unless someone has a better suggestion dont dont mind revealing.

Oh and I am working on getting my acid etching system in working order but finding a small enough stencil supplier is proving very difficult and my hand cut ones look like a childs work, ha !

here are a couple i have pictures of I just gave to a couple friends.

1080
3/16" spine
5" blade
Convex grind
Cocobolo scales


1080
1/8" spine
4" blade
Convex grind
stonewashed
acid etched
cocbolo and antler handle
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  #9  
Old 12-01-2016, 08:54 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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www.newjerseysteelbaron.com for the steel

www.erniesknives.com for your stencils

Your knives are coming along nicely. Glad to hear you are testing ....


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