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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 03-16-2012, 01:44 PM
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T.WOLFE T.WOLFE is offline
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Help!I need a grinding jig.

I see this about once a week and it always makes me cringe,"cause I know this statement is gonna be met by a chorus of denials from the faithful,crying"no!no!no!"
as if someone said they just saw the preacher stumbling out of the local saloon.
The new maker-to-be then thinks,"what am I gonna do then,'cause I sure can't grind
and I want to make a knife."Maybe sometimes we tend to forget we were once in their shoes, and didn't know a plunge cut from a pipe wrench.Granted,a jig is not an end all solution but if it will give a new maker confidence,I say go for it.
My early efforts at grinding looked like an appendix operation sewed up with a tow chain.Man...they were pitiful!But you know, Iwas proud of them.Thankfully,'ol Mike Miller
of the KGA took me under his wing and lined me out in the right direction.
A lot of these folks don't have acess to a hands-on teacher and they're trying anything to get something out the door.I know there's no substitute for practice, but just a little confidence can really make a difference.We all march to a different drummer and thank God for that or we would all be making the same thing the same way.
Iv'e got a shop full of jigs I use to make my work easier and more accurate and don't even feel guilty about it.Here's something to think on......is a man that grinds with a jig
less of a knifemaker thanone who hires someone to do his heat treat?
I don't think so..they're both trying tomake the best knife they can.
Like the man said,"keep it fun!"
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  #2  
Old 03-16-2012, 04:38 PM
jwfilion jwfilion is offline
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I agree that eventually you will be able to grind a blade in your sleep, and it will take lots of practice. However, I can only imagine how many great future knife makers were so frustrated with their first attempts that they gave up. I bought one of those hollow grinding jigs from Kovals when I first started, along with one of their 2 x 72 grinders. The jig was very well built and accurate, unfortunately the grinder was not. I made several blades before the grinder fell apart I decided to make one myself and put the jig on a shelf until I was done, It's still on the shelf! While building the grinder. I became comfortable with its capabilities and never looked back, I may not have built the grinder if I had become disillusioned, Of course, that is my temperament and I'm sure most of the naysayers only wish to save you money, but in the end it is your decision. We all start off using small steps, and if some steps require the aid of a walker, then so be it! Whatever it takes to get the job done!


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  #3  
Old 03-16-2012, 05:33 PM
FGYT FGYT is offline
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use whatyou feel you want to

are you less a man if you use a ruler to draw a straight line or a compass to draw a circle both are jigs
tradidtional grinding is big wet stones (most masters do it by feel and sound ) so is the new fangled belt grinder you bought also a cop out ??

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Duncan
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  #4  
Old 03-16-2012, 10:42 PM
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AUBE AUBE is offline
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I think this goes back to the old argument of what is "handmade" what is "custom made" what is "bench made", etc.

I guess everyone just picks a certain limit on how much they rely on aids. Some people use nothing but metal files, chisels, and sandpaper to shape blades, some use cnc equipment. Some outsource the blade. Many people outsource heat treating. Many people use drilling jigs. Many are now using laser/waterjet cutting. Some forge solely by hand. Some use presses and mechanical hammers. Some heat treat by eye, some use pyrometers, some use digital ovens. Some outsource the entire process then just assemble the knife and throw their name on it.

As long as a maker is honest about his methods I do not look down upon them. Its the dishonest ones I do not like. For example I saw someone selling a knife on a different forum last week for $195 and marketing it as their own. I can buy the exact same knife at the import store down the road for $3 (and no, its not a knockoff of the makers design).

I do tend to have more respect for people that use less equipment. It takes more skill and time to learn therefor I find it more demanding of respect.
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  #5  
Old 03-17-2012, 09:26 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I guess my opinion on this subject is pretty well known by now and I doubt anybody wants to read it yet again but I do have one new thing to say on the subject. I've been on these forums for over 10 years right here moderating the Newbies because I hope to be able to show the new guys how to get the same joy from knife making I do, show them how knife making can be a fulfilling creative outlet. People need to create and today's world doesn't give us much real opportunity for that. I wrote computer programs for over 30 years - that's creating something but who besides a programmer would even begin to care? Who could I show it to? Who else would even understand it? Same thing for lawyers writing documents, clerks in a store, school teachers, etc. They all might get satisfaction from what they do but it still feels a little bit hollow because it's difficult to share with others and, once it's all done, there is little to show that will last for very long.

There is nothing inherently wrong with using jigs and fixtures to any degree that you wish to use them if you are making an informed decision. If Bob Loveless decided to use fixtures to enable his helpers to make blades faster to fill his enormous backlog of orders because it just wasn't possible to grind that many blades by hand in a short time everybody would understand that and everybody knows that Loveless can certainly grind a blade by hand. But, if a Newbie wants a jig because he doesn't know how then that is absolutely the wrong time to start using jigs. Some Newbies will be able to use those jigs as a spring board to learning how to grind on their own but others will simply keep on using them because that's how they learned to make a blade. You can argue all you want that a blade made with a jig is "just as good" as one made by hand and maybe you'd be right but there is no way on this Earth you will ever convince me that the personal satisfaction you feel is the same.

All I'm saying, give the new guy a chance to realize and experience that same satisfaction that we do when that steel takes shape in our own hands. Encourage them to stay away from jigs until the jigs can be just another tool instead of a potential crutch ....


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  #6  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:34 PM
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T.WOLFE T.WOLFE is offline
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If Bob Loveless' helpers ground his blades and he put his name on them,would'nt that be deception?
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  #7  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:53 PM
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AUBE AUBE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.WOLFE View Post
If Bob Loveless' helpers ground his blades and he put his name on them,would'nt that be deception?
Depends on who you talk to. There are quite a few makers with helpers (and many more outsourcing steps of the process...) who use their name on the blade.

Personally I felt uncomfortable with the idea so when I switched from a part time maker to a full time maker instead of using my name on the blades I made a company name....since it was always part of my plan to expand to more than just me making the knives.

Again I think its ok as long as you are honest about your methods. If you have helpers helping, just be upfront and tell people. In some cases a maker started out by themself and built a reputation based on their name but then later either had the option of turning down orders, hiring help under the existing name, or starting from scratch building a reputation under a new name.
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  #8  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:24 PM
Razal Razal is offline
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My first post here , I have to chime in here because I'm a new maker off to a VERY rough start. I was shown the basics of knifemaking while helping out one of my wifes family members. He made offhand grinding look too easy. He's made knives, hatchets and until recently swords. I tried to absorb all the knowledge I could while in his shop, and only after moving away and trying to get my shop and skills up to par have I realized that there was MUCH more to learn. I've debated with myself over the whole thing about using jigs and other tools to make it easier. I have three blades waiting for heat treat right now because I can't afford a pitiful #20 tank of propane. I'm using three worn out 36grit belts that have no life left in em. The blades aren't perfect, but by God I love em. Hopefully I can get more supplies and the next blades will be better and so on and so on.... I might try grinding with a jig someday, but I have to get that perfect plunge and that even grind first.
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  #9  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:05 PM
Larry Peterson Larry Peterson is offline
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I was recently discussing this issue with an old knife maker here in Utah. He told me about when he designed a "jig" to hollow grind. He told me that one of his two partners got all upset and told him to "get that thing out of here." His partner didn't beleive that a hand made knife should be made with "grinding jigs" like they use in production factories.

I on the other hand can see the benefit of jigs. I grind totally freehand and because of the many years of practice, can do ok with out a jig. However, when you look down the grind line, especially on a dagger or a 10 inch long blade, you can see the "wowies" in the grind line. I think a jig would probably clean the line up. The problem is, does my buyers really want a mechanically ground blade??? I know that some really professional makers use surface grinders to get the perfectly flat surfaces. You can pull the blade across the 2 inch wheel longwise and with a little practice, get a pretty flat surface. Again, you can examine the knife under light and see the difference. I personally do not use a rest plate to profile or for any thing else. I would guess that most knive makers would agree that a tool rest plate is ok and still call it a "hand made knife." The line between "Hand made" and "machine made" gets more gray all the time. I use a three HP motor on one of my grinders and a two HP on the other. I guess that if we were to "split hairs" the electric motor driven grinder is not really a "hand tool."

I am really ok with however a maker wants to get the knife made. It is really wonderful to live in a free country and have diversity within our trade.

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier.

Best wishes, Larry Peterson
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  #10  
Old 03-22-2012, 04:02 AM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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There are a lot of opinions out there. Some feel that the only way to make a knife is to forge it, and using any machine, even a belt grinder, is a shame. On the other end, there are makers that have their blades waterjet cut before grinding and heat treat, and for some of those guys it's the only way to keep up with orders.

To each their own. If you want to hammer and drawfile, or creep into the world of midtech, then I don't think it matters as long as a) you enjoy doing it and b) if selling, the customer understands your process. For some makers the PROCESS is most important, for others the PRODUCT is most important.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:44 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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I'm gona chime in, My disdain for grinding jigs has nothing to do with the "custom" or "handmade" issue. The reason I dislike grinding jigs is because when a newer maker "learns" to grind with one, it becomes a crutch....meaning that the individual(s) become reliant on them to the point that they are often unwilling or unable to grind a blade without the jig.
Jigs also will often limit an individual to one or two styles/profiles of knives...which means they either build the style/profile that their grinding jigs allows them to, or don't make a knife...once again, extremely limiting.

Like Ray, I've been around a while, and have seen the "trends" of thinking on various issues concerning knifemakers and knifemaking. I've also been teaching/conducting classes for many years....very often when a maker comes here, it's necessary for me to "unlearn" them, in order to help them.
I make it a habit to find out as much about a person and his/her experience before they arrive at my shop for a class. One of the questions I ask is if they have ground any blades, and specifically if they have done it "freehand" or with a jig. Historically, those who started out with, or routinely use a grinding jig, are those who I know I will have to spend extra time with at the grinder. Grinding is a learned skill....it requires time, patience, and effort. The rewards are the ability to grind any style/profile of blade that comes your way. I am making a separation between "beginners", and establish/knowledgeable makers here, because it is relevant on this issue. While technology has no doubt improved many aspects of modern life, Knifemaking is one area where you cannot trade spending money on technology to circumvent the time and effort it takes to learn the necessary skills.

NOW, on the other side of that coin, we all know that time is money in this business. I have no issues with established makers using jigs and/or fixtures.....it's only good business to be able to speed up production....as long as quality isn't sacrificed.

That leads into the Loveless issue spoken about in previous posts. To that I will just say....I have reason to believe that for the last 20+ years of his life, that he never actually produced a knife himself....only applied his name to them.


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  #12  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:50 AM
tomwatson tomwatson is offline
 
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After reading through this I was not going to post but I will. There is another side to this. I have been grinding blades for 34 years by hand. I was diagnosed several years ago with Parkinson's and you will not believe what it will do to your ability to grind. I use a jig to grind blades with because I can't do it any other way because of the tremors from the disease. I also have Narrow Angle Glaucoma and Cataracts. The Cataracts are not bad enough to fix yet. So I use a magnifier to grind. That is like a jig. Several well known makers have told me they will never use a jig. As you age you may change your mind.
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  #13  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:30 AM
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Tom
I'm just happy that you are able to continue doing what you love doing with or without jigs. Keep up the great work.
I started out using jigs for grinding and was very limited to what I was able to grind. I was one of those guys that Ed had to reteach how to grind. I had never ground free hand, I always used a rest and a push stick. Once Ed showed me the basics of free hand grinding I went home and practiced this. Now, I can't believe how much more control I have of grinding. I have many guys that come out to build knives in my shop and now I have them grinding free hand as well.
I don't care if guys use grinding jigs, cnc, water jet or whatever they choose to do, as long as they enjoy what they are doing.
Jim
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  #14  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:57 AM
rick c rick c is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.WOLFE View Post
If Bob Loveless' helpers ground his blades and he put his name on them,would'nt that be deception?
It has always been known Mr. Loveless has had helpers.So in this case it would not be deception.

Rick
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Old 04-08-2012, 03:27 PM
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I never knew Loveless had people build his knives until a couple years ago. I was really intrigued with Bob and his knifes and was hoping to one day own one of them. Now, I am not interested even though they are highly sought after.
Jim
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