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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:21 AM
CAM CAM is offline
 
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Location: Toronto Ontario Canada
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Liner lock bar mated to blade?

Hi!

I'm very new to making knives (just in the planning and material ordering stage). I've done some reading on the making of folding knives. I've purchased and read Bob Terzuola's book on the locking liner, but am still a little confused as to the mating of the locking liner to the blade and how to do it correctly.

In Mr Terzuola'sbook he mentions that he likes a positive lockup, where the angle of the blade tang (between 7 1/2 degrees to 8 1/2 degrees) matches that of the locking liner face, which is at an matching opposite angle, so that they mate.

My question is how do accomplished makers grind the angle of the liner lock face at a matching opposite angle to the tang of the knife blade?

the jig in Mr Terzuola's book shows a screw pushing out the bar of the liner lock so it can be ground. Is the liner pushed out by 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 degrees and then pushed into the grinding surface at exactly 90 degrees? or does it get pushed into the grinding surface at 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 degree angle that would mate it to the blade tang.

If this has already been explained, and I have overlooked it in my searches, I apologize. Any information or links would be much appreciated!

Thanks very much for everyone's time and knowledge in advance!
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  #2  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:55 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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First off, welcome to the forum! Second, in my (admittedly) not so humble opinion you picked the wrong book to try and learn folder making from. With all due respect to Mr Terzuola's abilities and his very nice knives his methods are the type of things that are used by machinists in mass production which is distinctly different from custom knife making. He produces very high quality mass produced knives. If that is what you want to do then go back and read the book very carefully and you should find your answers there. I have that book and I think he covered his methods in sufficient detail.

If, on the other hand, you want to learn to build liner lock folders as custom knives one at a time then forget about all those jigs and most of the fixtures and learn how a liner lock works so that you can build one or as many as you want with as much variation between them as you want. You'll soon find out that all that angle matching - while it may work just fine - isn't necessary. You'll find out that 8 degrees works real well but 8.5 degrees - who are you kidding? 10 degrees works too, just not quite as well. Unless you have some very nice tools like CNC or at least a very good milling machine then you'll be using your belt sander to establish these angles just like most all the other folder makers. Worrying about a half degree with a belt sander is a complete waste of time.

Now that I've vented on this subject which I admit has always been a hot button for me I'll answer your question as you asked it: it doesn't matter how you get the angle on the end of the bar. You get it there any way that you can manage and that will depend on the tools you have at hand. If you want to build knives by those methods you will need to be able to solve those kinds of problems on your own because no one else is in your shop or knows exactly what you can or cannot do/build to accomplish a given job. In short, any way that works is fine.

Now, just for educational purposes let's take a look at an alternate method. You may hate it or you may love it but you will at least see that there is more than one way to skin this complicated cat: http://www.rayrogers.com/ftutorial.htm Be sure to look at the end of the tutorial to see some of the knives that people have made using those instructions.

I would not normally advise anyone to begin their knife making experience by making folders. Folders are hard to make. Consider making some small fixed blades first. Give yourself a chance to learn grinding and finishing and fitting techniques before you open the can of folder worms. But, if you do decide for move ahead with folders at least try not to make it more difficult than it needs to be ...


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 12-17-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:34 PM
CAM CAM is offline
 
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Thanks very much for your time and your response!

I'm sure that I'm jumping in way over my head, and that I should set myself a much easier task than making a folder first, but I'm silly and prepared for the worst Though trying deperately to avoid it as much as possible.

Thank you for the link! I will read it thoroughly. I think I found a post on this site that you made on this same topic (though I could be wrong) that your lock bars are at a negative angle? where the corner of the lock bar meets the face of the knife? Honestly I don't really have a preference as to the style of lockup, I just want it not to fail on me. I like my fingers, and I hope they stay where they are for many years to come.

I don't really have a lot of machines or fancy gear. I'm prepared to invest in some, but for the time being would like to do it as simply as my inexperienced brain can handle.

I will definitely go back to the book to see what I missed.

I did get a dvd from Chris Crawford by Allen Elishewitz, and he did something interesting where he clamped a carbide milling bit to the end of the locking bar and used the grinder. I watched that a number of times, but was always curious. Are the sides of thos carbide bits for a milling machine at 8 degrees? (randomn I know) but I thought I would ask in case you might know.

Thanks again!
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:35 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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The angle and shape of a milling cutter can be had in a million forms so I couldn't say what you might have seen on that video. I won't even say that all those more complicated and varied ways of shaping and mating the lock bar to the lock face might not be superior to my less elaborate method - maybe they are. What I am saying is that it isn't absolutely necessary that it be done that way - perfectly solid and reliable locks can be done without all that. As proof of this statement I would direct your attention to any quality Benchmade, Spyderco, Cold Steel, Kershaw or similar high quality production folder. I doubt you'll find any of those elaborate techniques used on any of those knives, certainly not at a price I'd want to pay. The lock bar face is simply flat, the lock notch face is cut at whatever angle (about 8 degrees mostly, I think) and it is flat. Done deal. I test mine, usually lightly grind off the leading corner of the lock bar if it tends to stick a little and that's about all it takes most of the time.

I put all that convex shaping and half angle stuff in the same bucket that holds the 'special' steel formulations that only this one maker has or a 'secret' heat treat process known only to the ancient Japanese masters and this one special maker. Sorry, I'm calling BS on this stuff for the most part. Not that it doesn't work for it may, but that it could be so incredibly superior to all other methods and materials and processes that any lesser method or material or process is completely out done. Nonsense. A lot of that stuff is pure BS and the part that isn't offers, at best, an incremental improvement over some less complicated way of doing things ...


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Old 12-17-2012, 02:02 PM
CAM CAM is offline
 
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Thanks again for the response!

I'm sorry in advance for my questions: no disrespect is meant at all in terms of methods used. I'm fine with any method that works, I just want to understand so that I know what I'm at least attempting to do when I fail

I appreciate very much your time and your knowledge. I look forward to posting a picture of whatever kind of monstrosity I make.

Thanks again!
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  #6  
Old 12-17-2012, 03:21 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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We're open to all questions here and, believe it or not, pretty much any and all methods of making a knife. But, this is the Newbies forum and I know that once one starts down a certain path inertia tends to keep them on that path. If that path is so complex and difficult that the new maker loses interest or is overwhelmed then we here have failed at bringing one more new knife maker into the fold. In short, get the basics down first, learn by the simplest method possible. After that, you can choose for yourself what direction you want to go to improve and refine your skills. In that regard, I would point out that folder building requires more machinery and tools and discipline and skills than making fixed blades. You would be doing yourself a huge favor if you were to build a few small fixed blades before tackling folders. Everything you learn and all the tools you use can be applied to folder making later and you will have learned many of the skills that could prevent your first folders from being much less than they could have been if you weren't trying to learn so many new skills at one time ...


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 12-17-2012 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:24 AM
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Anthony Chaney Anthony Chaney is offline
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Listen to Ray. He is a wealth of information and he gives his time and knowledge freely.


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Old 12-20-2012, 09:06 PM
CAM CAM is offline
 
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I appreciate your time and information for sure! My question was motivated as a search for information. I have only been able to find one really good book on liner locks which is the terzuola book mentioned above. If I'm missing a better source I 'd love to hear about though! All in all I think the terzuola book is really great, and has a lot of information which i find helps me learn. I've seen a number of tutorials on line and most of them talk about the ramp on the tang of the blade, but not so much on the liner portion, and as the lock is an important part of the knife, I wanted to be sure i got it "right"

As far as liner locks go: iI've not seen a clearer description of their geometry anywhere as in that book, but that doesn't mean that It was perfectly clear, hence my initial question as to how to achieve the correct geometry simply.

I realize that I'm biting off a heck of a lot, that I will probably not make anything usable in my first few attempts etc, but that doesn't really concern me as failure is part of learning, and living for that matter so I will probably get the equipment I need and do it. My search for information is my way of preparing for the attempts. I can't wait to post pictures either bad or good of the first attempt!
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:30 PM
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SBuzek SBuzek is offline
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Get this video by Don Robinson,will walk you through making a liner lock from start to finish.
http://www.knifemaking.com/product-p/vl121.htm
If you have any questions you can go to the folding knife forum here and Don hangs around there and can fix you up.
Stan


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