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  #1  
Old 01-10-2013, 12:29 PM
dwc34205 dwc34205 is offline
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Damascus and Mammoth Ivory- Why did I start with these??

Hello all,
Looking for advise, criticism and expecting some comments on my material selection for my first knife(s).

I have random pattern damascus, mammoth ivory scales and Zirconium (ZC) for the bolsters. I have shaped the blades and from best that I have gathered they are ready for heat treat. May have the cutting edge still a little too thick. Better safe than sorry I guess.

My first concern/question is that I have not quite figured out how go through the handle shaping and attachment process. So here is my situation explained, so that it will be clear as mud.

1) I have nickel pins that are going to look good with the scales. Bond, pin and sand. Got that process figured out.
2) ZC needs to be heat treated after shaping. Need to temporarily bond for shaping.
3) Cannot shape scales on freshly etched damascus.
4) Need black pins that will match ZC after heat treat. Or should I /can I just bond them on?
5) Get shaped scales and bolsters lined up for bonding after all work is complete.

I would be pulling my hair out trying to figure this out but I cut it too short.

One of the knives (8.5" OAL) in the first picture will get the scales and bolsters that I mention above. The smaller knife (6" OAL) I just threw in there. I don't have a picture of it now, but I did a hollow grind on it.
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  #2  
Old 01-10-2013, 02:40 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Ya really jumped in there with that material for your first knife but don't think yer the Lone Ranger. You're hardly the first person to get over ambitious with their first knife. Let me give you a couple of suggestions. Hopefully, they might work.

I don't know anything about working with zirconium so I'm guessing a little on how to deal with it. Some of it is going to depend on how hot you will need to get the material to blacken it. If you can do it with temperatures of less than 350? you can attach the bolster blanks with pins, shape the bolsters, then blacken them on the knife blank. Another alternative would be to forget about the matching pins and get some mosaic pins, apply the bolster blanks with temporarily with the pin and shape them both together, disassemble the bolster, blacken the zirconium, the carefully reassemble the bolsters.

Much the same with the ivory scales but use fresh sandpaper or belts to shape them. If you use belts on a sander make sure that you do not get the scales hot or they will craze or crack. Then you will need to disassemble the scales and touch up the damascus with some ferric chloride etchant, which can be obtained at Radio Shack. Then just reassemble the handle.

I had to do something like that when I did an acid bluing job on a guard and handle on a knife that I did.

Doug


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  #3  
Old 01-10-2013, 03:11 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Doug's right - you aren't the first to try those materials on a first knife and no matter how many times we answer this same question for others and tell them it's a bad idea someone will do it again in the future. Sounds to me like you already have some idea of the kinds of problems you're facing. I wish I could just jump in there and answer your questions, clear it all up for you, and then you could buzz through it all and come out with the knife you want but it isn't going to happen. If you are very, very lucky you might come out with a knife that you will feel satisfied with, at least for now. After a couple of more years of knife making you'll probably look back on that knife and wonder how you ever worked up the courage to show it to the public.

And that's if you get the knife finished as you want. It's just as likely, even more likely, that you'll split the ivory scales or burn them or get a splotchy etch on the damascus or the ZC bolsters (whatever that is!) will pop off because you decided not to pin them.

So, here's what little advice I can offer: put all that stuff aside until after you've made a few simple steel knives and have become familiar with all the processes that you freely admit you are not now comfortable with. For Pete's sake, what's the big rush? Fancy materials alone do not make a high quality knife. If Frankenstein's boots were made of solid gold would he be able to date a supermodel? No, he'd he'd still be a monster, just dressed up in gold boots. Don't build a monster, wait until you can do it right ...


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Old 01-10-2013, 03:11 PM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Honestly, You would be better off to set all that aside. Get some cheaper/simpler materials and learn on those first. Then when you are confident about the processes break out your Mammoth Ivory and damascas and go to town.

I Just made 2 knives in the same pattern that I want to make one in damascus. Both of them turned out good, my sister came to me last week and asked what I would charge her to make a knife out of Damascus? I said Order enough for 2 knives and I'll make it for free. So by next week I'll be trying some damascus as well. But with the confidence that I have a good shot of not screwing up expensive steel.

Pls do this. You will be happier in the long run if you do.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:13 PM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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LOL Ray Beat me by seconds. Listen to him he is the expert.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:39 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Ray's answer is better than mine.

Doug


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  #7  
Old 01-10-2013, 05:15 PM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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I really don't have anything to add here, but I will ask a question.

Where did you get your damascus? Any chance it came off Ebay?
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:28 PM
dwc34205 dwc34205 is offline
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Doug ? I really appreciate the advice. I think have a pretty good idea of how to handle it (famous last words and usually followed by hold my beer). I was told by the guy that I bought the ZC from that he heats his with a propane torch until the color is achieved. As for the ivory?fortunately when I built my grinder I put a VFD on it so I can slow it down to a crawl if needed to keep heat from building up. My concern with shaping everything then disassembling would lead to me not getting everything lined up right on the final assembly.

Ray ? You are the Obi-Wan Kenobi of Knife Network. Your advice is exactly what I thought I should do. When I bought the material I had a grand idea of an amazing knife AND it would my first. I do think things through pretty well BUT I do go into things 110% and with blinders on. That leads me to trying to hang with the masters before I have even tried. Gotta walk before you crawl, right?!? I really want this to turn out good because it will be for a friend. He is not rushing me to get it done; he just wants to have one that I make. I am not scared or timid to try the Damascus right off the bat but it is the combination of materials that spooks me. Think I will throw some dyed and stabilized lace maple or big leaf maple on there.

Ricky ? Are you one of the three wise me (Ricky, Doug and Ray)?

Last edited by dwc34205; 01-10-2013 at 08:48 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:32 PM
dwc34205 dwc34205 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJStricker View Post
I really don't have anything to add here, but I will ask a question.

Where did you get your damascus? Any chance it came off Ebay?
The damascus came from Lacy Smith at Alabama Damascus. I bought all of the materials that I mentioned at the Blade Show in Atlanta last spring. Yeah, it took me a while to get started working with this stuff but it took me a while to build my grinder. Who knew that having a baby would take time out their schedule to do other stuff??
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:38 PM
dwc34205 dwc34205 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Doug's right - you aren't the first to try those materials on a first knife and no matter how many times we answer this same question for others and tell them it's a bad idea someone will do it again in the future. Sounds to me like you already have some idea of the kinds of problems you're facing. I wish I could just jump in there and answer your questions, clear it all up for you, and then you could buzz through it all and come out with the knife you want but it isn't going to happen. If you are very, very lucky you might come out with a knife that you will feel satisfied with, at least for now. After a couple of more years of knife making you'll probably look back on that knife and wonder how you ever worked up the courage to show it to the public.

And that's if you get the knife finished as you want. It's just as likely, even more likely, that you'll split the ivory scales or burn them or get a splotchy etch on the damascus or the ZC bolsters (whatever that is!) will pop off because you decided not to pin them.

So, here's what little advice I can offer: put all that stuff aside until after you've made a few simple steel knives and have become familiar with all the processes that you freely admit you are not now comfortable with. For Pete's sake, what's the big rush? Fancy materials alone do not make a high quality knife. If Frankenstein's boots were made of solid gold would he be able to date a supermodel? No, he'd he'd still be a monster, just dressed up in gold boots. Don't build a monster, wait until you can do it right ...
Hmm...So the gold boots have been my problem. I thought it was the snuggie that I had on. Kidding. That was a really good analogy. Going to have to remeber that one. Thanks again.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:25 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Let's talk about that Zr (the correct symbol for zirconium) for a moment. As you may have guessed, it isn't a material we commonly use on knives. That doesn't mean you can't use it, of course. According to a quick google I just did Zr is a rather nice looking silvery metal. Apparently, jewelers really like it because it's purty just the way it is. I can see why you might want the bolsters to be black if you have a damascus blade but, so far, I don't see why black bolsters need to be Zr. Does blackened Zr look any different than blackened steel? If not, then maybe you should consider using more damascus or some 1084 (which blackens nicely using the same etchant you will use on the blade, thus saving yourself considerable misery). Maybe Zr has other properties I'm not aware of but you really are lumping a lot of unknown variables into one project.

I think your plan to use the damascus with some nice wood is a better idea for now. You might hold the ivory until you're sure you can do a really nice grind on a plain steel blade, then use the ivory on that, maybe with some file work. If if works out, you'll have a nice knife. If your buffer cracks or burns the ivory or if you can't get the ivory clean again after buffing then you can scrape it off the knife and add another handle to save the knife without having to worry about preserving the etching that would have been on a damascus blade. It's not easy to walk in solid gold boots but you can get there if you take it one step at a time ...


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Old 01-10-2013, 09:46 PM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc34205 View Post
Doug ? I really appreciate the advice. I think have a pretty good idea of how to handle it (famous last words and usually followed by hold my beer). I was told by the guy that I bought the ZC from that he heats his with a propane torch until the color is achieved. As for the ivory?fortunately when I built my grinder I put a VFD on it so I can slow it down to a crawl if needed to keep heat from building up. My concern with shaping everything then disassembling would lead to me not getting everything lined up right on the final assembly.

Ray ? You are the Obi-Wan Kenobi of Knife Network. Your advice is exactly what I thought I should do. When I bought the material I had a grand idea of an amazing knife AND it would my first. I do think things through pretty well BUT I do go into things 110% and with blinders on. That leads me to trying to hang with the masters before I have even tried. Gotta walk before you crawl, right?!? I really want this to turn out good because it will be for a friend. He is not rushing me to get it done; he just wants to have one that I make. I am not scared or timid to try the Damascus right off the bat but it is the combination of materials that spooks me. Think I will throw some dyed and stabilized lace maple or big leaf maple on there.

Ricky ? Are you one of the three wise me (Ricky, Doug and Ray)?
Lol, No.. I am not worthy of polishing those two wise men's boots.

Whatever you end up doing post pics. That way we can either cheer or cry with you.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:52 PM
dwc34205 dwc34205 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Let's talk about that Zr (the correct symbol for zirconium) for a moment. As you may have guessed, it isn't a material we commonly use on knives. That doesn't mean you can't use it, of course. According to a quick google I just did Zr is a rather nice looking silvery metal. Apparently, jewelers really like it because it's purty just the way it is. I can see why you might want the bolsters to be black if you have a damascus blade but, so far, I don't see why black bolsters need to be Zr. Does blackened Zr look any different than blackened steel? If not, then maybe you should consider using more damascus or some 1084 (which blackens nicely using the same etchant you will use on the blade, thus saving yourself considerable misery). Maybe Zr has other properties I'm not aware of but you really are lumping a lot of unknown variables into one project.

I think your plan to use the damascus with some nice wood is a better idea for now. You might hold the ivory until you're sure you can do a really nice grind on a plain steel blade, then use the ivory on that, maybe with some file work. If if works out, you'll have a nice knife. If your buffer cracks or burns the ivory or if you can't get the ivory clean again after buffing then you can scrape it off the knife and add another handle to save the knife without having to worry about preserving the etching that would have been on a damascus blade. It's not easy to walk in solid gold boots but you can get there if you take it one step at a time ...
I have worked with Zirconium at work but never in this application. I shortened it to ZC for Zirconium Carbide. Once HT is complete the oxide layer has a hardness near that of diamond. It has a very rich black color to it. Here is a poor quality picture of a knife that claims to have a Zr Carbide blade.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:36 AM
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SVanderkolff SVanderkolff is offline
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I agree as well that putting aside the damascus and ivory would make a lot of sense but then some of us have not been known to do the sensible. Having said that, one of your questions was how to attach the bolster or ivory for shaping before heat treat and etching and then remove them. I will drill all the pin holes insert the pins and not peen them but use some crazy glue to attachthe slabs and bolsters. Just a drop, too much and you will ruin your parts getting them off. A razor blade slipped between the handle and the ivory or bolsters will pop them off when you are done. Again this works much easier if you have practiced it with a bit of generic hardwood and cheap steel to start.
Hope that helps
Steve


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Old 01-11-2013, 09:04 AM
Cthulhu Cthulhu is offline
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In answer to your intial question: "Damascus and Mammoth Ivory- Why did I start with these??"

Is the answer: Because you're a glutton for punishment?

Did I win?

Seriously, you're in the position that most of the new makers find themselves, much enthusiasm, not enough skill. In with both feet! Lifejackets be ####ed!

Listen to the guys, they know their stuff.

Best of luck.
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