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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 11-10-2003, 07:35 AM
LRB LRB is offline
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Forging vs stock removal

In the past I have made most of my knives by stock removal. I am now thinking of going to forging them. What properties does forging really give to the steel that would make it superior, or does it? I need to know for my own confidence and to have something to tell a customer.
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Old 11-10-2003, 09:14 AM
bulldogsblades bulldogsblades is offline
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I tend to avoid this subject as it tends to lead to arguments. I have used both methods, but now I forge all my blades. My grandfather (a blacksmith) would have told you that the hammering compresses the molecules of the steel thus making a stronger blade. He would also say that a coal forge should be used as the burning coal imparts carbon to the blade. This being said, with today?s steel I wouldn?t say it matters much which method you use. I sell around 60 knives a year and my customers tend to prefer forged blades. That?s why I forge all my blades.

Bulldog
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Old 11-10-2003, 02:13 PM
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sjaqua sjaqua is offline
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Boy is this a hot potato!

But the simple answer is this. Forging allows the smith to not be contained by the size and shape of the metal. With stock removal, you must fit your finished blade completely within your starting stock. Forging a blade allows you to change the dimensions of that stock, at need.

Also forging once learn to be done right, can save you time. Now I'm not this good yet, but I have heard said "five minutes at the forge, translates to 30 min at the grinder". While I haven't gotten to that point yet. The are a lot of things that are much quicker for me to do at the forge. Profiling the blade, forging out the point, setting in the shoulders for the tang, starting the bevels, etc.

In addition to that, a forge allows you to make your own welded cable and pattern welded billets. For me this is a lot of fun. Now I know you can buy very good pattern welded billets from other smiths. But wouldn't you like to be able to tell folks that you made the whole knife, yourself?


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Last edited by sjaqua; 11-12-2003 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 11-12-2003, 10:18 AM
jph jph is offline
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LRB:

Ok, in a nutshell, beware of alot of the common misconceptions that seem to run rampant in regards to bladesmithing, especially all of the "making the metal "denser"" stuff and things like that. I will say if you do NOT know what you are doing you can really mess up some perfectly good steel by improper working temps, not getting the forging proceedures down correctly and a lot more ways you can screw up. However, you are opening up an entire new way to express yourself, design and otherwise do things that could be almost impossible to do "cold".

I suggest that you start out "small" and work your way up to larger and larger pieces, and don't "worry" yet about anything double edged as doing a decent double edged blade can bea real PITA if you are just starting out. Be prepared to spend alot of time figuring stuff out, and some of it will be easy, some of it won't be.. If you already know how to grind decently, that will be a great help, as there is still a good deal (not anywhere near as much as a stock removal project) of grinding involved. Fit, finish and all that are pretty much the same.

Best case would be to find someone in your area who is already doing this and see if he/she would let you be a forge fly every now and then. (I wish I could of found someone when I first started, as this would of saved me at least 4 or 5 years of stumbling about, trying to "re-invent" stuff that was already "out there"..)

If you have any questions at all, by all means drop me a line and I may be able to help ya out a bit..

JPH (the above is my personal opinion on this..but then again, what do I know anyway??)


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Old 11-12-2003, 10:39 AM
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Jim is absolutely correct about wanting to see another smith in action, if you can. There are a large number of tasks that you need to see done right, to understand. Books just don't make things clear enough to understand the process. And videos don't aways show the details. Nor do they aways show things from the correct angle. And unless you know the lighting conditions they were shot in, you have very little idea of the actual colors involved.

By watching Jim and then his former student Tony Lemon, every chance I could get, I took years off my learning curve. I still have a long way to go. But I would not be anywhere near this far along without Jim and Tony.


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Old 11-15-2003, 07:12 AM
C L Wilkins C L Wilkins is offline
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It depends on where you want to go.

Its sorta like this, there are the Harley riders and then there is the "all others" crowd.

Zen and the art of knifemaking.

OK, enough of that philosophical junk...

Forging is the more traditional way of knifemaking, its been going on for a couple of millennium at least. Forging is typically done with simple carbon or low alloy steels although there are those that forge the stainless steels however it is not as common a practice.


Materials for forging are generally less expensive except you'll need an anvil, forge and hammer. If using simple carbon steel such as 1084, 1095 or even a low alloy steel such as 5160 it is much less expensive than 440C or 154CM.


Folks that forge strive to forge to 90 percent of shape. (I may strive for that but if I get to 50 percent I have done good!) All that I know do their own heat treating as well.


You will find that there are generally "unwritten rules" when it comes to knifemaking. I must emphasize that these are not HARD FAST rules but generally guidelines.


Most folks that forge use natural materials for their handles and fittings.


On a blade that is made using the stock removal method the sky is the limit. Micarta, corian, etc.


Most folks that forge make the majority of their own stuff. If there is a damascus blade that is made by the bladesmith then you can rest assured they more than likely made the damascus as well. Many folks that do stock removal will buy their damascus from other makers. The same with mokume. There is nothing wrong with that, I am just point out one of the differences.


Basically, it depends on which direction YOU want to go. Both methods can make a fine blade. Its up to you.

Craig


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Old 11-15-2003, 07:49 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Let's open this can of worms! LOL!

Being an "iron mangler", the biggest advantage I see with forged blades is the level of control it gives. With it the bladesmith has the ability to go beyond the piece of steel he/she starts with. How? Well, there is a learning curve involved, and every day in the shop I discover something new and exciting, but what I'm driving at is this............. learning to properly forge and thermal cycle the steels you work with as a bladesmith opens up a world of possibilities that most stock removal makers never dream. I have always been leary of sending something out for heat treat.....simply because I have no idea what has happened to that piece of steel between the time it leaves my shop, and the time it returns. By doing ALL the steps in my shop, I have complete control over how the finished prodcut comes out......even a stock removal maker using conventional heat treating methods within his/her shop does not have the ability to control heat treatment to the level most bladesmiths do. Most of the steels used in stock removal knives simply do not lend themselves to it.
I have conducted many, many tests, and can attest to the fact that when correctly accomplished, "forgable" steels will yeild a better blade than blades of the same steels that have been created via the stock removal method and "professionally" heat treated. What do I mean by "better".......I mean that the correctly forged version of the blade with out cut, out flex, and be easier to resharpen than it's stock removed counterpart. There is more equipment involved, more time, and more effort, but that "extra" equates to a better product for your customers. Forging will also open up the world of damascus (or "pattern welded" steel) which has endless possibilities. Do I stock remove? Sure I do........when a customer demands stainless qualities above all else, I will stock remove S-30V, simply becasue it does not lend itself to forging.........but I can assure you that when a person demands stainless qualities above all other aspects that a blade offers, they are getting, in my opinion, less than what they could have.
I'm sure that if you have specific questions about the differences, the fine folks on these forums will be glad to help!


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Old 11-15-2003, 10:08 AM
berettaman12000 berettaman12000 is offline
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Speaking as a user......one of the major reasons I prefer a forged blade is that it is much easier to resharpen and this is a big deal to me! Just my two cents!
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Old 11-15-2003, 10:41 AM
LRB LRB is offline
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Forging vs stock removal

Please explain the difference in results of heat treating a ground blade and a forged blade if the method of heat treat is equal in both. I don't understand how one is different from the other with all else being equal. I heat treat my own in a coal forge. I only use file steel, 1095, and o1. NO stainless. I do full and differential tempers, just depends on the blade and what it's for. How does a forged blade cut better than a ground with equal heat treat and equal rc.
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Old 11-15-2003, 09:42 PM
C L Wilkins C L Wilkins is offline
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Re: Forging vs stock removal

Quote:
Originally posted by LRB
Please explain the difference in results of heat treating a ground blade and a forged blade if the method of heat treat is equal in both. I don't understand how one is different from the other with all else being equal. I heat treat my own in a coal forge. I only use file steel, 1095, and o1. NO stainless. I do full and differential tempers, just depends on the blade and what it's for. How does a forged blade cut better than a ground with equal heat treat and equal rc.
One thing that forging does to a blade compared to a blade that is not forged is to take the steel through more heat cycles. There is of course the forging process then there is normalizing, annealing, heat cycling and THEN do we finally get to the heat treat.

When you forge and do the other "stuff" that comes along with it the grain is reduced for one. The steel benefits from the many heats if done properly. I believe with all things being equal, a blade made from 1084 or most any other simple carbon or low alloy steel such as 5160 or 52100 would benefit from being forged a bit better than one if it was just stock removed.

Now, on the other end of the spectrum. I cannot say the same thing about the "stainless steels". If forged, I haven't seen where they would benefit at all. You might as well do stock removal. Kinda funny isn't it?


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Last edited by C L Wilkins; 11-16-2003 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 11-17-2003, 09:07 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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OK, generally speaking, stock removal blades do not go through the same thermal cycling as forged blades. The process for most stock removal blades runs something like this......
- Purchase annealed stock
- Grind the blade
-Either send it out for heat treatment, or go stright to "in house"heat treatment from there.
This is basically relying to the steel company to ensure that the thermal cycles have been completed in a superior manner (which is usually NOT the case), and whatever they sent you in terms of grain structure or proper thermal cycles is what you have.

Now, when a blade is forged, with the same bar stock, (assuming that the forging is properly conducted), the grain boundaries are forced to follow the counturs of the blade, creating a stronger overall blade. Next, when forging, the bladesmith will normalize (thermal cycle) the blade after it's shaping is complete. (thermal cycling can make a MAJOR difference in the performance of a blade.) Through thermal cycling alone, I can achieve 20-25% more cutting ability out of the same blade versus it's stock removal counterpart. Annealing is also accomplished, then off for rough grinding. Once rough grinding is completed, the blade is thermal cycled again to prevent any warpage in the hardening process(I sometimes do multiple thermal cycles at this point if I suspect the blade may want to warp during the hardening process). Once the hardening and tempering are completed, it's time for the final grinding. All the thermal cycling also plays a large role in the final geometry of the blade. By performing the forging and thermal cycling, the geometry of a given blade can be thinned down to achieve a blade that will cut with less resistance, with no loss in strength as compared to a stock removal counterpart as mention previously.
There are of course, those steels which respond better to forging and thermal cycling than others, but that is part of the fun........finding which ones do, and doing your best to taken them to their performance limits. The only way you will be a believer is to experiment for yourself, and draw your own conclusions. Several years ago one of the knife mags did an article on several different steels, rating each for their durability and edge retention. One of my favorite steels was rated at the bottom of the list. After contacting the author, I found that all the steels had been stock removed and sent to a "professional" heat treater. I decided to do my own tests with the same steels used in that article. The difference was that I forged one of each steel, and stock removed one of each steel. The forged blades I thermal cycled and heat treated in my shop. The stock removal blades were sent to the the same "professional" heat treater used by the magazine. In ALL cases, the forged blades out performed the stock removal blades by a wide margin. Why? becasue rather than settling for the grain sturcture the steel company sent me, I improved upon it. I also belive that the formulas used by commercial heat treaters is not always the best for a knife blade. I say this because many use heat treating mauals as their guide, and if you ever look at these manuals, you will find that the specifications are based on heat treating a 1" cross section of the given steel. I personally have never created a blade with a 1" cross section.......and I believe that if your following a heat treat manual based on 1" cross sections, your doing more harm than good to your blades, particularly when your dealing with soak times. Any soaking above cricital temp in most blade steels (remember we are talking about blade sized thicknesses) will result in expodential grain growth, which does nothing by harm the finished blade.
So, I firmly belive that PROPERLY forged blades will out perform stock removal blades. But do not take my word for it. Experimenting for yourself is the only way to be confident in what your doing. Forging is not something that a person can step into an expect to get right the first time. It requires that you do your homework, learn the tools and how to use them, learn all you can about how time and tempurature effect steel, and understand how you can use it to your advantage.
One more thing.....I just went back and read your post again.......this one will floor you. A properly forged blade with a couple of points lower rockwell hardness will often times, out perform the same material stock removal blade which has a slightly higher Rc. It all comes back to time/temp, and the PROPER forging and thermal cycling. But as I said, do not take my word for it. It may take you a while, but once you figure out how to properly apply the forging style of knifemaking, I think you'll be amazed.


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Last edited by Ed Caffrey; 11-17-2003 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 11-17-2003, 11:32 AM
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Robert Washburn Robert Washburn is offline
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well said

Hay Caffrey ,Well said.I`ve done the same test and found that forging and heat treating my on blades makes for a hands down better blade.I read the same article and then did the test. Thanks Robert


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Old 11-17-2003, 12:43 PM
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Forging SS

Hello:

How come any time someone brings up hotworking SS it seems that the SS usually gets bashed? I mean you can make a great knife out of good quality SS that will perform just as well, and in some cases better than a high carbon steel??

I mean is it the extra work due to the hot hard tendencies?? Is it the fact that most hammer heads aren't capable of, or interested in doing all that is required to get a proper thermal treatment on ss MATERIALS?

Sean McWilliams and I, a few years back proved that a good SS was totally capabe of making a great knife.. No one cared much back then, actually I doubt if anyone listened, and well, I think that it's the same case now, no one cares..

Granted it takes mne 3 to 4 times as long to hotwork a SS blade than a HC one, due to the Mo, V, W and all that is in some of the better ones, but the results are worth it in a knife blade.. Swords..well that's a different thing all together, but a knife..Yes it can make a great knife.

I think all the bad press SS got comes from the "kitchen cutlery and silver ware" stuff that everyone sees marked as "stainless steel" that is so soft you can't even get it sharp if you tried all day. I dunno...but I do know that a good SS can make an excellent knife...

JPH


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Old 11-17-2003, 03:58 PM
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Jim,

There is no doubt that SS can make a great knife.........I've done similar forging with it as you have, and have found the same results. The one big exception to SS is that no matter how I've tried, the flexibility/durability is no where near what can be achieved with some of the non-stainless steels. The other area that makes me prefer non-stainless type steels is the ease of sharpening. This is the one area that my customers always complain about when they referece stainless steels. I'm not talking about the el-cheapo stainless steels..........even S30V, which is by far the most suitable stainless I have ever encountered for knives is a real pain to sharpen compared to say 52100, 1084, or 5160. The day may come when there is a stainless type steel that will satisfy all of my demands for a blade material........but it hasn't happened yet.
I'm not bashing the stainless varieties of steel, simply stating that if a person demands stain resistance in a blade, I believe they are settling for less than they could have.


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Old 11-19-2003, 01:28 PM
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Ed:

On a small blade, outside of say a filet or boning knife, I don't see a high degree of flexibility being that great a factor in a knife, and even then, there are stainelss alloys that can have a great deal of flex and still hold a very good edge.. Look at the Rapala/Fiskars filiet knives...You do need some flex, and properly heat treated SS can give more than what you will usually ever need in a blade this size. Swords, well, no way..

On a small ( < 8" or so) knife I do not see where flexibiulity comes into play. The ability to prevent oxidation can play a major part in a kinfe's edge holding ability as if the edge starts to rust, you can really notice the decrease in cutting ability. Especially in food prep where you are cutting high acid materials like fruit.

As for ease of sharpening, I really don't see where this is, for me, a problem. My clients don't mind that it takes them x number of minutes longer to stone and strop the edge back, as they say that under field conditions, the edges stay sharper longer so it all evens out if ya ask me. Hardness does play a very big part in edge holding in most steels.. So in general, the harder the steel is, the longer it should hold an edge, all other things being equal like matrix and carbide formation....


I just don't see where a great degree of flexibility comes into play on a "user" length knife..unless it is something akin to the afore mentioned filet knife.

JPH


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