Forging vs stock removal

[hammerdownnow]

Seems like as you learn ,you would natually try harder and harder things. For a couple of masterbeaters like Jim and Ed SS would be a natural progression. SS forging seems far away to me. The slow relaxed pace of HC is fine for me for now.
The sculpting aspect along with the perfomance control of forging is a big enough bite for me to chew. Stock removal did not hold me for long , but forging opened up a whole new world to me. Is it the ritual of mind over matter, bending things to ones will, or just beating things into submission that is attractive? Whatever it is, it is a super rush for me and just plain FUN!
Everytime I come on, I just want to thank everyone here for sharing their hard earned knowlege. It is a great gift to give to people you don't even know.

[Geno]

I used stock removal for 2 decades before I started to forge.
I forge because I love it. It lets me be more creative.
Once you've done everything "to" a knife, you long to control what runs "thru" the knife.
Today, I specialize in cable damascus.
Mixing the patterns IN the steel, is fun.Way more creative than grinding S/S.(not knocking the stuff)
For me, it put the fun back in it again.
As I hold a well made damascus blade, it feels like something inside me was captured in the steel before the "knife" is even made.
For me forging is more about damascus than just knives.
I love to mix and match the steels in different patterns and create an engineered work of art that is distinctly unique from any other creation. Must be how God feels making us
With a little bit of the makers spirit in each one made, all were made to be different yet work for thier purpose.What a life?

Almost every blade will be ground somehow, but a forged blade, esspecially a damascus blade, to me just has more of the maker's charecter built into it.
I feel it is a better way to express yourself in your work.8o

[Ed Caffrey]

Jim,

Maybe I used the wrong term......what I probably should have said is "toughness". Basically my dislike for the material comes from edges that chip under stress when compared to the same type edges of non-stainless. Most of the time these "chips" have been very small, but enough instances of large (1/4" or more) chips have left a sour taste in my mouth. In another instance I witnessed a young man drop a custom blade of 440C on concrete and the blade literally broke in half. Mind you it was a very cold day (below zero) and the knife had been outside for most of the day, but as I said before, it just left a bad impression on me.

[DaQo'tah]

Im a new knife maker,,so I dont know as much as the rest of you guys,,,But I can tell a story...


I forge John Deere Load shafts into knives. I had one all ready forged and belt-grinded down the the point where I could do the heat-treatments.

Then I noticed a problem. I noticed that my knife tang was bent down too much below the line of the knife. Had I placed a handle on the tang as it lay it would have given my knife a "bent" look . Everyone that would have seen the knife would have asked ; "When did you drop it?"


But because I forge my knives now, I was able to just fire up my Low Boy Forge, and heat the tang section of the knife, till the point where I could stick it into a vice and bend things to where I wanted them.

Had I not had the forge I would be tossing that knife into the backyard.

[jph]

Ed:

Sounds like bad heat treating to me, especially on the 440C, this stuff really shines when forged and properly themally treated. I take it this particular knife was sent out and done commercially by a "heat treating" firm??

SS when done properly, and believe me doing a high performance HT on SS is a PITA, but it really can cut and hold a great edge, but due to its make up with all that Cr and Ni, it don't flex too well at all. This is why I put a length limit of 8 to 10 inches on anything I will make from it.

JPH

[C L Wilkins]

Not to try to resurrect a dead horse but I believe that the problem with a lot of the stainless steels is just as mentioned. Many stock removal makers don't do their own heat treating and are at the mercy of the local HT shop.

Another "opportunity" is that forging these steels are a royal PITA, it just doesn't move as well under the hammer as the simple carbon steels.

Having stated that, what would be the advantages of forging, for example, 440C over stock removal? I am not being contentious when I ask this but have a genuine curiosity. What temps should be used? What HT should be used? You've got my interest.

Craig

[DaQo'tah]

Ed Caffrey...

Your story of the dropped blade that broke in half reminded me of something...

about a year ago I was just getting started in knives. I wanted to forge some real 52100 steel like Ed Fowler used, so I sent away to Rex Walter and got a small section of that type of steel.


I got the steel soon , and it came as a section about 1/4 inch thick and about 1 and 1/2 wide, and about a foot long or so.


I fired up my coal forge, heated the steel up, and banged it around a bit. I placed a rough point on the steel, then tried to work the tang area,,,,without much luck.

Then I gave up and went to bed.

The next morning I went out to the forge and saw my blade where i had left it on the work bench. When i picked it up I noticed that the blade was now a bit bent for some reason,,,strange I had not noticed that before?

I knew the correct thing to do would be to re-heat the blade , and hit it flat and straight...But, due to the cold winter morning, I decided to place the blade on my section of railRoad rail and hit it flat.

I struck the blade one time,,,,,,it snapped cleanly in half...


(how fast a dream turns to junk in the sport of knife making....)

[Ed Caffrey]

I've done something similar in the past....When I first started working with 52100, I forged a couple of blades and did not normalize or anneal them. I simply finished forging and left them laying on the anvil overnight. The next morning I was going to normalize and anneal them, but once they were heated up, several cracks along the edges became appearant. That's when I learned that 52100 was especially susceptable to the bladesmith making mistakes, and unforgiving of errors. That was one of those hard lessons that has stuck with me through the years.............Don't start it, unless you can finish the job!

[Ron Claiborne]

Thanks Ed for telling that story ,I think you may have solved a problem that a friend of ours was having in his 52100 ,he was getting cracks in the steel running along the edge from front to back at diffrent places about 1/4ineach 3 to to 4 a blade i failed to ask if he left the blades at any periods of time un worked
using the same steel not all his 52100came out this way .i ask if he might have worked it to cool he said no im betting this is the problem ill mention it to him thanks
bowie

[Wiggins]

Look at the bright side Ron, learning the hard way should stay with me. Thanks Ed, for the info. That certainly clears up an issue that had really been causing me some heart ache. No more letting a forged blade of 52100 lay around a day or two, until I get a chance to do some thermal cycling.
Bill

[Darren Ellis]

yep Bill, like I said, that water quench is tough on blade steel...there's a lot of residual stress,,,I guess when we talked I just assumed you did some sort of stress relieving cycle on it...the hard lessons will stick with you.

-Darren
p.s. we need to talk about me getting a few bars from you if that offer still stands, otherwise I need to find another source...let me know!

[Wiggins]

Darren, I don't think it was the water as much as just letting a forged blade lay around for a few days before doing any normalizing or annealing. I have found that 52100 forces you to really pay attention to what you are doing. Variables that didn't seem to affect 1084 can really make you start all over with 52100. I think Ed is dead on the money when he says not to start what you can't finish. I guess it is only fair that the extra performance comes with a price!!!
Bill