Why use exotic steels?

[Ed Tipton]

I still consider myself a newbie here although I have now made probably 50 knives using a propane forge and doing my own heat treating in my trusty toatser oven. Since beginning in this hobby, I have made knives using a couple of old files, some 5160, and mostly 1080 steels. All of these are "simple" steels, are relatively cheap, available, and are easily "doable" for the DIY enthusiasts. I started using the 1080 after reading where Ed uses it for his EBK series, and figured if it was suitable for his knives, then it will certainly work for mine.
After reading extensively, and actually working in my shop, I am confused as to why anyone would want to use the more exotic steels which are harder to find, much more expensive, and frequently require the use of equipment far beyond what most of us have on hand to do the HT. I can see the "benefit" to using a stainless steel since it does not rust as quickly, but beyond that, I can see no benefit, and once the price and difficulty encountered in using the more expensive steel is factored into the equation, I personally do not see any benefit worth the time, trouble, and expense.
All of this leads me to wondering if I am missing something here. I personally think that the knives I'm making would be pretty hard to beat as far as functionality goes. They all cut well, look respectable, and perform their intended function. What else is there? I suppose if compared to one of the more exotic steels, that a knife made from 1080 might not measure up in some areas, but I just can't see going to the extra time, trouble, and expense for such a negligible benefit. I would rather spend my time and money in further refining my skills in the forging and heat treating the 1080, and enjoying the benefits of derived from doing a "simple" task well.
If I'm missing something here, please enlighten me.

[C Craft]

You ever have that feeling you are about to say something you shouldn?t!

Well here goes. I am a 1080 user too and a newb (I had that term at my age but, it's true)! My take is that there are times when more exotic steel is required for building that certain something into a knife, and I am not going to get into what might meet those requirements of that certain something, simply it woud be something 1080 does not have the ability to do.

However I think it is often like the difference between saying, "I drive a Ford" or ?I drive a BMW"! It is steel snobbery!!! There I went and said and I feel better for it!

My problem with the exotic steels is that each one has its own learning curves and if you do not take the time to learn that new learning curve. Well let?s just say you may have a long pointy object, with handle but, that does not necessarily mean it is a knife. There are many time when I hear someone say, "I am going to make my first knife out of........", and it turns out to be one of the hardest steels to work with, or requires a certain quench oil and they are planning on refried bear fat as there quench oil. Granted if you go thru that learning curve and you do finally get it right. Well then and only then will you have a good piece of steel from which you can try to make a knife. To me there is so much more to making a knife than the chosen steel but, at least learn on a steel that you can master both, the steel and the knife making!

Now, ?I won?t say never? when it comes to using a more exotic steel because there may come a day when the knife I am building needs certain properties that I can?t offer the customer in 1080. However I am not planning on going to a more exotic steel just to say I built a knife from it. I look at it like this. When I work with 1080 I know what it is going to do (I have been thru what I consider the learning curve with it)! Therefore if I continue to try and make each knife just a little better than the last one I will not only improve my forging skills but will improve my overall ability to make a high quality knife. Then at a later date if I see the need to go to another more exotic steel to offer a customer that certain something. Well then I will have to go thru the learning curve for that steel but I won?t have to learn how to make the best knife that I can offer as I will already be well down that path! MyO2

[SBuzek]

1080 is good steel,I use it making damascus.It is not Stainless and I like Stainless stuff.Iuse alot of CPM154 Works well.
I think alot of it is due to the fact we like to experiment and try different things,and some of it is steel snobery "I have a knive made with XYZ Steel and you don't".
There is alot to be said about sticking with one steel and getting the best proformance out of it.You can spend a life time doing it.
Stan

[Ed Tipton]

C Craft, I think we're both barking up the same tree. I guess that if I inherited a lifetime supply of D2, or whatever, then that could in and of itself, give me the motivation to use that steel. However, I totally agree with you in saying that I have no agenda that includes making a knife from D2 or any other steel just so that I could say that I had done it. I seriously doubt that I could ever make a better knife than I now make by using a different steel.
The field of metallurgy is so complex, and so full of variables, that for me, there is simply not enough time to learn it all. Don't get me wrong, I AM interested in those knives made from the "exotics", and I would certainly enjoy a discussion with the maker, but I doubt that I'd be impressed to the point of changing my thoughts.
Again, a knife made by a competant maker is by definition a well made knife, regardless of the metal or techniques employed, and deserves the respect of all who are privilaged to critique it. However, to say that it is, by virtue of the metal it is made of, a "better" knife, I do not agree with.
Of course, there is the intangible area of "bragging rights". I think it would be great to be able to say that I was able to make a great knife out of anytype of steel out there, but I doubt that that maker exists, and it certainly isn't me!. Even the greatest among us have their preferences and favorites. I would brag just as hard to say that I was an expert on any single type of steel. Given all of the variables involved, I think that would be a pretty big statement. I make no claim to being an expert on 1080, but, I am closer to being an expert on 1080 than on any other type of metal. I still have an awfully lot to learn.
As an old friend of mine used to say, "There is no shortage of experts, the trick is in knowing which one's to listen to".

[SharpByCoop]

Originally Posted by Ed Tipton

Since beginning in this hobby...

I personally think that the knives I'm making would be pretty hard to beat as far as functionality goes. They all cut well, look respectable, and perform their intended function. What else is there?

Hi Ed,

Once you consider this a business and not a hobby, your outlook might change. For those who consider this area of their lives as income, then they realize they are competing with 5000 other makers for a slice of the pie.

Competition always requires you to stay on top of the curve and make a product equal or superior to your competitor, even if it requires extra work and perceived better materials.

Your second quote asks: 'What else is there?'
There isn't a 'collector' out there who doesn't want a knife suitable for the job. They also require high end work and materials. The users will always screen this test and you, through your testing, become part of this screening. Is your core market users who purchase one or two knives, or collectors who purchase tens? Do you make knives for collectors? Think hard if you don't.

You see what I am pointing to: Your steel choice may very well be appropriate for many, yet if you want to grow you may have to expand out of your comfort zone.

Ex: For 95% of my work my older 6mp Canon 10D DSLR would have been sufficient. But, I have jumped up numerous times till I now use a 21mp camera. One of my 'competitors' uses a 39mp camera. I can't disregard this.

Growth and change are hard. Not always necessary, but you asked.

Coop

[huntforlife]

I have to ask. But what do ya'll consider "exotic steels"?

[Ray Rogers]

For me, the bottom line is often that X steel is what most of my customers expect. I make a lot of folders and most people expect stainless blades in folders. Personally, my all time favorite steel is probably O1 and I use a lot of it on fixed blade knife but rarely on a folder.

Heat treated and forged correctly 52100 will out perform 1080 by a good margin according to what I have heard. Articles comparing various steels put through a Charpy test show the exotics like S30V out cutting simple steels by two or three times. That's why buyers often ask for the exotics as much as any sense of snobbery (although there is no lack of that too).

But, in the real world of real users how much difference does that really make? Not so much to me and I expect, quite a few others. I don't mind touching up a blade and they all need sharpening sooner or later and some are easier to sharpen than others. And, the way that they cut is different. I guess all I'm saying is that the best steels are the ones you master , they all will make great knives and I like using carbon steels best but you gotta give the customers what they want ....

[NJStricker]

Part of the desire to use other steels is that fact that there IS something better out there. Some steels are significantly better, some aren't.

If knifemakers/bladesmiths never sought anything better than they had, we'd all still be using wrought iron.

[fatzombie]

"I am going to make my first knife out of........", and it turns out to be one of the hardest steels to work with, or requires a certain quench oil and they are planning on refried bear fat as there quench oil.

Whats wrong with refried bear fat? I use it to cook eggs as well as quenching bg-42. Like everything else in knifemaking its all about temperature control anyway.

[Ed Tipton]

Aaaahh...the eternal pursuit of perfection! Seriously, I have no problem with anyone trying to produce a better product. And, if I thought that one type os steel was inferior to another....then everything else being equal, I'd switch to the newer steel. I certainly do not want to be the only knifemaker around making wrought iron knives!!
I guess what I don't buy into is what I'm going to call the "golf club syndrome". Any day of the week you can turn on your TV and find someone who is trying to convince you that if you buy their new special "Whammy-doodle Special Golf Club" you will become a better golfer by Friday. The implication is that you can simply BUY a better round of Golf, and by extension, you will not have to work for your gains. It smacks of outright fraud.
I don't doubt that there are many Bladesmiths who make fantastic knives out of some very exotic steels, and more power to them, but for the average DIY'er, hobbiest, enthusiast out there I just believe they would be better off paying their dues by learning and perfecting their craft using basically the same steel. Admittedly, it is fun to experiment, and if in doing so I found something I liked better, then I suppose I'd change to the newer, better steel.
I am not in the knife business, and I can afford my opinion. Obviously, if I was in the business of selling cutlery, I would be forced to cater to the demands of the public, and then maybe I could make and sell the perfect self sharpening, self cleaning, self oiling, never get your hands dirty knife out of the latest scientifically engineered steel. But for the time being, I'll stick to my "simple" steels.

[huntforlife]

Originally Posted by Ed Tipton

I am not in the knife business, and I can afford my opinion. Obviously, if I was in the business of selling cutlery, I would be forced to cater to the demands of the public, and then maybe I could make and sell the perfect self sharpening, self cleaning, self oiling, never get your hands dirty knife out of the latest scientifically engineered steel. But for the time being, I'll stick to my "simple" steels.

Dance with the one that brung ya.

[B.Finnigan]

I am always amazed at the newer makers that immediately jump in and start with the more complex and tougher to work steels. Especially if they forge. How many give up in frustration not realizing that they picked one of the ten toughest steels to start out with?

I stick to 1084 and on down in C content. Everyone that has bought my knives likes them and have never complained about their performance.

For machining projects I use the higher alloy steels but would never try to forge with them.

[Carey Quinn]

I've enjoyed this discussion guys. Since everyone has an opinion, I thought I'd toss mine out.

I have always forged my knives but am currently trying to learn stock removal. It's a bigger learning curve than I thought it would be. I am using 1084 because I can heat treat it myself. When I can pick up a piece of steel and know that I will end up with a good finished product, I plan to move to one of the Crucible steels simply because I want my knives to be more desirable to collectors. I will send it out to be heat treated because I am not equipped to treat those steels in my shop. That seems to be acceptable to a lot of collectors so I guess I can learn to live with it. I will still offer carbon steel for those who want it but for those willing to pay a premium, I will offer a 'premium' choice.

Just a little more to chew on,
Carey

[TexasJack]

If there was only one "right" knife, there would only be one "right" steel.

It doesn't take much looking around this forum to see a wide variety of both. Ed Caffrey's knives don't look much like Tai Goo's. I've seen some great stuff in S30V, but also in 1084. And CPM154, and so on. The knife that works great gutting a deer is probably not the best choice for carving a turkey.

Variety is a good thing.

[Ed Tipton]

I anticipated a good lively discussion on this thread. Thanks to everyone who responded with their opinions.
As my skills improve, my opinions will probably change since there will be more info to sift through, and in time, I may come to appreciate the use of different materials and techniques. Right now, I am basically making hunting and general utility type knives. As the need arises for me to make a wider variety, the need for change may become evident. I do not want to be close minded about things, and sometimes the circumstances alter cases. For the time being, the 1080 and the 5160 work just fine for me, but with this hobby, who knows where your next project may lead you.
As Yogi Berra said, "When you come to a fork in the road...Take It"!