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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 08-27-2015, 04:12 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Stupid noob questions

I am making knives by stock removal, i have no desire to get into forging nor can i afford it. I am looking at steel from admiral steel and it seems they ll require heat treating, which i am not sure if i can do.

First question, is there a steel that can be completely heat treated in a small grill using coal or charcoal OR inside in the kitchen oven, which goes to 500 degrees?

Second question does anyone know the ballpark total for sending a knife out to a company for heat treating? doesn't have to be an exact price just the typical ballpark cost.

Third question should i heat treat before or after i sharpen the knife? I mean do i just flesh out the basic shape and heat treat or do i go all the way to nearly done and then heat treat?



Edit: BTW these questions are the reason i am using old lawnmower blades right now instead of wasting money buying quality steel to learn on. I would rather learn and make the mistakes on free junk than i would O1 or D2 or 5160 or heaven forbid mess up a piece of L6.

Last edited by VanceHanna; 08-27-2015 at 04:15 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-27-2015, 05:25 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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First, I wouldn't recommend admiral's stuff for you. While I use their steel it tends to come not fully annealed. This can be a problem if you are drilling holes for pins. This isn't a problem if you are forging the steel. The stuff from New Jersey Steel Baron is more expensive but is annealed.

You can take a bbq pit and a hair dryer and attain enough heat to do a heat treat on some steels. The 1084 is going to be the best choice for you.

The last question, it can go both ways. Generally I will HT long thin blades before grinding, the thicker forgings will be ground to 90%.

Somebody else will have to answer the cost to have it done.

You know I make many knives from old files, ground in the hardened state and tempered in a oven. These take the guesswork out of the HT and make most excellent knives if you use a quality file. And those files can be picked up at yard sales, flea markets and junk shops relatively cheap. You just have to keep them cool while grinding.
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  #3  
Old 08-27-2015, 08:28 AM
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Hunter10139 Hunter10139 is offline
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Hardening is going to have to hit ~1500 F for your simpler high carbon steels so a standard oven won't do it. However, an oven will work for the tempering process. I highly recommend a charcoal forge for backyard hardening in the style jmc described as it is pretty cheap and with care can produce a very useable knife.

As far as how it shaped it should be before heat treat, I heat treat my knives before grinding the bevels, however, I have a belt sander that I grind with. If you don't and you are using files, you'll have to file your bevels before heat treatment. Just don't file thinner than about a dime's thickness, otherwise you'll likely end up overheating your edge.

Files are a good source of steel too, just make sure its a fully hardened file and not a case hardened file. If it is, and you have a belt sander to grind the bevels, you can use the method jmc described for making a knife.

When you do decide to buy steel to make knives out of, I highly recommend 1080 or 1084. It produces an excellent blade and can be heat treated using simple methods, ie the barbecue forge.

If you want a source of good information on heat treatment, google kevin cashen and check out his bladesmithing info section. He has heat treatment information for many common steels. Edit: he has heat treatment info under that section on his website.


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Old 08-27-2015, 08:32 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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1st question: No, there is no steel that can be completely heat treated in a BBQ pit or kitchen oven unless you turn the BBQ pit into a forge as James suggested. A better solution is to build your own forge to use for heat treating. Its easy to do and not terribly expensive.

2nd question: If you make a single blade from 440C stainless then Texas Knifemakers will treat it for $7.50, I believe. One of the reasons we generally suggest 1084 to beginners is because you can HT it yourself, preferably in a small forge. But you can send it out to Peter's Heat Treating but I think he prefers blades in a batch with a cost in the $25 range.

3. I'm focusing on the word 'sharpen'. Sharpening the blade is the very last thing you do after the knife is completely finished. I hope you meant 'grinding the primary bevel' instead. If you are working with hand tools then shaping the bevel first is the most reasonable way to do it. If you have a grinder then you can grind either before or after the HT as you prefer....


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Old 08-27-2015, 02:40 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Thank you for your quick replies. I do have a belt sander from Harbor Freight on the way it will be here Saturday im good there. I just can not afford a pre made forge at 600+ i simply dont have that kind of money to lay out. Wow heat treating is a lot cheaper than i thought it would be!
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:17 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Build your own forge. I have a video on forge building. In the video I build a forge and two different types of burners in about two hours (real time). Depending on how good you are at scrounging parts or how willing you are to make some parts a forge like that can be made for $100 or so ...


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Old 08-28-2015, 02:41 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post


3. I'm focusing on the word 'sharpen'. Sharpening the blade is the very last thing you do after the knife is completely finished. I hope you meant 'grinding the primary bevel' instead. If you are working with hand tools then shaping the bevel first is the most reasonable way to do it. If you have a grinder then you can grind either before or after the HT as you prefer....
Actually I meant set the Bevel AND sharpen down to nearly done. Then send out to heat treat, get it back and then do the final razor edge on it.

OR

Do i just set the bevel send out for heat treat and THEN finish when i get it back?

Sorry I have ADHD and sometimes my spinning thoughts dont always come out crystal clear. lol
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Old 08-28-2015, 03:19 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Do as much grinding/shaping/finishing as you want before HT except ANYTHING that creates a cutting edge. You send a sharp knife to a heat treater and if he has any sense he'll send it right back to you untouched.

After HT you'll still have plenty of grinding and finishing to do because the HT will ruin any finish you put on the steel and some grinding will be required to clean it up....


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