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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 02-07-2013, 07:24 PM
ChaserWilliams ChaserWilliams is offline
 
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Carbon Content question

Hey y'all, new guy here!

What level of carbon content is considered to be high? I checked a file at work and it was something like 97.6% Iron, but I'm not sure about carbon level.

I also umm... "Obtained" some rather nice metal cutting blades that are about 3 feet in length, 1 1/8" wide and 1/16" thick (think sawzall blades on steroids). These are constructed from 1 1/4 Chrome and have an Iron content of 95.something-another%. I've been told by several people that once the teeth are ground off these make quite nice knives.

I've have yet to make a knife, but I'm in the process of assembling a nice little work shop in the garage. I want to make a small forge and attempt to do some forging and these blades seem to be perfect for making some Damascus. I'm just not sure how different 1 1/4 Chrome is than something like an O1 tool steel.

Any help or ideas are greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:39 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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It's really hard to say what the carbon content would be. I'm thinking that you had the analysis made at someplace like a junk yard there they are more concerned with other alloying elements in the steel other than carbon. That's too easily adjusted when the objects are melted down for recycling. Either one is a crap shoot as far as carbon content goes, which is a very important element. I would say that the balance of the steel compositions is not made up of carbon. Anything above 0.6% would be considered high. Anything above 1% would be very high and anything that is above 2% is usually cast iron.

I know that you want to save money but starting out with steel objects of unknown is not they way to do it. Something like, 1080, 1084, or even 5160 is not all that expensive. Check out the prices at Alpha Knife Supply, USA Knife Maker Supply, The New Jersey Steel Baron, or Kelly Couples (though you will have to send for his current price list).

Doug


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  #3  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:26 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I completely agree with Doug. No one can really tell you with certainty that what you have there would make a good blade. Are you sure you would know a good blade if you made one at this point in your knife making experience? When you can be certain that you really understand what makes a good blade then you will also know how you can evaluate that steel and determine for yourself it it is blade worthy. Until then, stick with the purchased steels Doug suggested....


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Old 02-07-2013, 08:58 PM
Awelderiam Awelderiam is offline
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I am a new member, and I am new to knife making. However, I feel that there are lessons to learn getting to know steel, in general. I have been a welder for 30+ years of my life, which is not forging by any means, but working with steel, is working with steel. I don't see the fault in someone beating or working on a saw blade if he has access to that steel. If he has to wait to get his feet wet so to speak, he may never get started. Just like welding, everyone wants to run before they can walk......but a lot of the lessons learned the best are the ones learned by failing......as long as it does not jeopardize safety to either him self or others........It won't be a quality blade on most of the experts standards, but it might be the best knife he ever held. Just my opinion........I will ask a million questions once I get the forge fired up, and I will make a lot of mistakes, and I want to learn to make quality steel, but to me that does not always come from following the leader......although I know 99% of you guys have already been where I am going.....and I can learn from your mistakes, I can also learn from mine. Even if it to say......." You were right".............
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:59 PM
Awelderiam Awelderiam is offline
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Just my outside opinion.....no disrespect intended.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:01 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I can see your point, in a way. However, heat treating is the greatest part of making a blade. You can have a rather poorly made blade with good heat treatment that could still make a usable knife but a very well crafted blade that is poorly heat treated will make a useless knife. The objects he mentioned might not be capable of accepting any heat treatment to make a blade. When it comes to knife making, knowing steel in general will only take you so far. You must know steel that is useable for blade making. When it comes to blade making, the idea that working with steel is working with steel is only true only in a very limited way.

Doug


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Last edited by Doug Lester; 02-07-2013 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:48 PM
Awelderiam Awelderiam is offline
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I agree completely, in my comfort zone welding high carbon steel the wrong way will result in failure. I see your point as well, better to give your self as much a chance to succeed as not.....just thought I would break the ice with this thread....
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:30 AM
ChaserWilliams ChaserWilliams is offline
 
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I understand that these probably aren't the most ideal materials, and I know that there's better quality metals out there for knife making. But just starting out, my first few knives will probably look like polished turds anyways, so I figure its easier to learn how to actually form a knife using free metal rather than make an expensive mistake. Just like in the world of welding. You start out with basic Carbon steel, then move up to the alloys once you have a better comprehension of things.

Does that make sense?

I have access to a PMI gun at work. That's where I got my compositions from. Ill check and see if it shows the carbon content in the hidden elements section. I was sort of checking them just messing around.

Thanks for all the input guys!

Last edited by ChaserWilliams; 02-08-2013 at 04:33 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:28 AM
Awelderiam Awelderiam is offline
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The guns won't tell you carbon content, not the ones that I have worked with anyhow. The hand helds can tell you if it's carbon steel on a comparative basis, but not the actual carbon levels. That will take an actual lab unit, which is not to expensive......
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:39 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Yes, you will start out making mistakes. My signature line is more to myself than to anyone else. I do see a certain logic to it. However, lets just say that you start out with one of those files and it's just case hardened, low carbon steel. Let's just say again that you forge out a blade that you are able to grind into something that looks pretty good. Now you are at a dead end because it doesn't have enough carbon in it the quench harden and temper. There is no way for you to practice finishing a hardened and tempered blade. You could practice putting a handle and even a guard on it but all you would have is a letter opener, at best.

Doug


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Old 02-08-2013, 04:00 PM
ChaserWilliams ChaserWilliams is offline
 
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What about a "Carbon Equalivent"? Anyone familiar with this?

According to the calculations, these blades range from .55% carbon content to .72% carbon if I'm looking at this right.

Not saying this is right, just thought it was interesting!
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:50 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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QUOTE: .but a lot of the lessons learned the best are the ones learned by failing

Awelderiam,

First, welcome to the forum. Your input is appreciated, but with the above statement you sort of avoided Doug's point. Presented from another angle, Doug's point is that if you use mystery steel you are setting yourself up for failure. To learn from a failure of heat treatment where blade making is concerned requires the knowledge that it is possible to get the heat treat right for this steel. If you do know know beyond a doubt that it is possible to HT this steel in such a way as to make a successful blade then there is no possibility of learning a useful lesson from trying to HT the steel.

With experience, you will know how to test mystery steel and determine if if has an outside chance of making a decent blade. Of course, you can grind on any steel just for practice but that only takes you so far. Mild steel grinds differently than good blade steel and a piece cut off some saw blade or an old file can grind significantly differently if they aren't annealed first. And all that is ignoring the possibility that the mystery steel is not flat or doesn't have parallel sides - huge difference when grinding.

Finally, the assumption that blade steel is 'expensive' and mystery steel is 'cheap' can be just plain wrong. Trying to whip an old file or auto spring into shape for grinding takes time, and fuel, and sweat. It wears out grinding belts, discs, better files or whatever you use to do the process. In other words, mystery steel isn't 'free' just because you didn't pay for it. Good blade steel like 1080 only costs something like $3/ft. If you try it's almost certain you will make a blade so why not make one you can HT and learn from? Good or bad whatever comes out will probably be a usable knife . Leave the mystery steel for later when you have already learned the lessons that give you a real chance of success with an unknown steel ...


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  #13  
Old 02-08-2013, 04:53 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I have never heard or read anything about carbon equalivent. When it comes to steel selection and heat treating there is a difference between 0.55% and 0.72% carbon. It would help if you knew what is what. There is not way to get around that mystery metal need to be experimented with to find the correct heat treating temperatures and soak times. That usually means that you have to experiment with each blade unless the piece of steel is big enough to make multiple blades from it. And that's just from carbon content. If you have other alloying elements in the mix they are going to effect temperatures and time too, depending on their concentrations. We're not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. We're just pointing out the problems that arise from recycling steel in this manner.

Doug


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  #14  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:45 PM
ChaserWilliams ChaserWilliams is offline
 
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Thanks for all the info guys!

I plan on ordering some quality 1080 or 1084 for doing things right at some point, in the mean time ill continue to gather tools and supplies to set up shop.

Thanks again for all the help!
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2013, 08:49 PM
Awelderiam Awelderiam is offline
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Carbon Equalivent is the CE of mild steel after running the equation of all of the elements......we use CE when running weld heat inputs and electrode use to limit the hardening of the heat affected zone after welding. I have spent my lifetime trying to stop what knife builders want.....hardness. So, I am now going to try and learn the other side of heat treatment.

I never meant to under score Doug's posts at all.....he has forgotten more than I will learn in this field I am sure. I was just picking a topic to jump in on......I too am a green horn, and will ask a lot of silly questions. I hope that you and Doug will continue to share your successes and failures. Lets be honest, I will never feed my family building knives as most of you here do. The same is true in welding, the end result is only as good as the contents.....I look forward to reading and conversing with you both in the future.
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