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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 08-28-2015, 01:13 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Steel Question?

If you could get the steel below based on the formula what would you think of it and would be something you would WANT to work with?




Carbon 3%
Manganese 5%
Molybdenum 10%
Silicon 5.5%
Nickel 12%
Bismuth 3%
Tungsten .5%
Vanadium 6%
Iron 55%
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  #2  
Old 08-28-2015, 05:18 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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No. Too much carbon with nothing to bond with. It would form nodules basically making cast iron with a lot of fancy stuff. If you replaced the nickel with Chromium then used the CPM process it might be possible.

At least that's my opinion.
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  #3  
Old 08-28-2015, 07:09 AM
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I agree, looking at cornbread with that much unbonded carbon.


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  #4  
Old 08-28-2015, 09:24 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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What if i drop the carbon back to 1% and add 2% Chromium would that fix the issue?



Sorry for the dumb questions guys, this is just how i learn.
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  #5  
Old 08-28-2015, 09:28 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Reworked the formula a bit how does this look.

Carbon 1%
Chromium 5%
Manganese 8%
Molybdenum 10%
Silicon 6%
Nickel 10%
Vanadium 10%
Iron 50%
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  #6  
Old 08-28-2015, 10:21 AM
damon damon is offline
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you just playing with numbers, or going to be making this new alloy yourself?

your background in metallurgy, or similar field?

with all those parts in it... I see a heat treating nightmare!
what kind of intricate cycle would be needed to harden and temper that?

Last edited by damon; 08-28-2015 at 10:24 AM.
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  #7  
Old 08-28-2015, 10:50 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I think what they are trying to tell you is that we are not metallurgist and are not able to design a steel from the ground up. We let the experts at the manufacturers do that and sometimes they ask for input from knife makers. One thing I can tell you is that the steel you are putting together is highly alloyed. Such steels require elaborate HT processes which is exactly what noobies need to avoid. In fact, anyone without an electric HT furnace should probably avoid such steels. So, you can understand why we can't answer such questions since they are largely outside the kind of things most knife makers need to know ...


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Old 08-28-2015, 12:14 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Sorry, but it seems to me that you're just trying to build yourself a unique alloy to use. Ten percent on both the molybdenum and vanadium are awfully high and would load up the steel with a lot of high temperature carbides that would complicate heat treating, as noted by Ray, and might not be all that great for toughness. (Just a bit of a guess here) Remember that if 1% is good it doesn't mean that 10% is ten times better. I hope that you understand that people go to university for years to understand what goes on with designing a steel alloy. Also it would be a very expensive experiment. Even your small volume steel producers will need orders measuring in tons to make a custom melt.

Doug


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Old 08-28-2015, 01:39 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Not a metallurgist myself either but i have done a fair amount of research on the qualities various alloying metals add to the steel and that is what i have been working from. Yall are right tho it would likely cost my soul to get made lol but for the fun of it here is another revision.

Carbon 1%
Chromium 5%
Manganese 4%
Molybdenum 2%
Silicon 5%
Sulfur 1%
Nickel 10%
Vanadium 2%
Iron 70%
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:45 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
Sorry, but it seems to me that you're just trying to build yourself a unique alloy to use. Ten percent on both the molybdenum and vanadium are awfully high and would load up the steel with a lot of high temperature carbides that would complicate heat treating, as noted by Ray, and might not be all that great for toughness. (Just a bit of a guess here) Remember that if 1% is good it doesn't mean that 10% is ten times better. I hope that you understand that people go to university for years to understand what goes on with designing a steel alloy. Also it would be a very expensive experiment. Even your small volume steel producers will need orders measuring in tons to make a custom melt.

Doug
Oh i am aware of the schooling time and dont in anyway think i know more or am better than the pros! Yes your right I am out to built a Unique Steel to use. You will see above I took suggestions and lowered alloying metals and increased iron content to 70% I did talk to one company that said they can go down to as low as 50lbs of metal, and the guy was gonna do some checking around to see if he could find anyone that could even go lower, but if need be ill take 50lbs worth of bars as long as the cost isnt Really crazy.
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:52 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by damon View Post
you just playing with numbers, or going to be making this new alloy yourself?

your background in metallurgy, or similar field?

with all those parts in it... I see a heat treating nightmare!
what kind of intricate cycle would be needed to harden and temper that?
Both, but ill be contracting out the actual making if i can find a place to do a small enough batch.

Background in Science but not Metallurgy specifically.

As far as what would be require to heat treat, IF/WHEN I get the Alloy Made ill be sending it out to heat treat and giving the pros the numbers on what is in it and go from their, but im guessing Cryo would be part of it.
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Old 08-28-2015, 04:34 PM
damon damon is offline
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don't take this wrong but.... I see something going on that I myself have done in my ignorance.

youre wanting to PAY to have a large batch of a unique, tricky to work with steel alloy....
..... but not willing to spend the $$ on some 1084 which is a KNOWN, EASY TO WORK WITH, which will yield consistent results so you can learn on.

there are things you need to KNOW/LEARN by hands on with easier to work materials first before moving on into the deeper waters of complicate alloys.

years ago I ordered some steels to use based on what id heard of how well they preformed as blade steels. but, knowing nothing of what was actually needed to PROPERLY heat treat them... well I made one small knife from one of them, did a heat treat, but am now quite sure that (though it cuts well enough for small daily tasks) its far from its full potential. the other steel... I discovered it was WAY TOO HARD to work even in its annealed state for me to use mostly hand tools on.
I still have those steels and have not made anything else from them. I took way too big of a bite and sunk my teeth straight into bone.


also when working with 1084, 1095... and such simpler steels... you know what you are working with... OTHERS know and have experience with what you are working with and, when something doesn't work out right in the process, there are more people on here able to help you figure out what went wrong, and how to fix or do it better next time.
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Old 08-28-2015, 06:58 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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What Damon said. And, you said that when/if you get your wonder steel made that you'll send it to the pros for HT. Sounds so easy, but where do you think the HT pros get their HT info. CLUE: not from the alloy mix of the steel - they get it from the spec sheet of the manufacturer. The manufacturer has gone through many, many pounds of the steel heat treating it according to the general direction provided by the alloy content, testing,lab work, over and over until they determine how the steel reacts so that they can recommend a process that is appropriate for ball bearings, turbine blades, cutlery (if we're lucky), or watch springs, etc - all of which HT differently according to their purpose. Anything less than that and the 'pros' are back to doing guess work which probably leaves you out a bunch of money with no more to show for it than Busse or Cold Steel (both of which have their own miracle steels which, when you look at the content and performance aren't much different than the more common but similar cutlery steels) ...


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