Scagel fake listed on eBay

[Buddy Thomason]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...273186805&rd=1

This link will take you to the item in question. I don't feel it would be wise to provide the reasons on a public forum. It's a debatable issue for sure: sharing knowledge freely vs helping crooks make better fakes.

If I know you, and know of your genuine interest in William Scagel, his knives and legacy feel free in sending me a PM or e-mail and we can discuss the particulars.

As usual, anyone in these forums should feel free to chime in on this. Maybe this will turn into a discussion of fakes in the world of custom handmade knives (antique or modern) or maybe folks will focus on this particular knife. Anything is OK except that I would be uncomfortable participating in a discussion of the details. There are great resources out there for our education concerning fakes. Bernard Levine is the expert most folks recognize. If you follow his forum elsewhere on the Internet or have read what he's written on the subject you would be ahead of the game in sorting the above example out.

[Buddy Thomason]

Well, 6 bidders have bid 11 times, the high bid is $3,450 and the reserve has not been met. Auction ends Monday some time. A high reserve could end up saving somebody from a very expensive mistake.

[hammerdownnow]

Hey now, I was wondering about this one. Something just did not seem right about it to me. It looked to be a reasonable homage. Maybe even considered Scagel style, but it certainly lacks the ol' Bill panache'.

[Buddy Thomason]

Good eye, Roc. $4,999 is now the high bid and the reserve has been met. I wonder if a shill bidder has joined the scam to get the bidding past the reserve and set up the sale. The seller (Lord, forgive me if he's actually an honest man!) may be betting that there is a bidder who might go just a little higher, thus putting their foot in the snare. Time expires and presto, game's over.

Edited to add: I just looked at the seller's use of language, lack of any real warranty or realistic return policy etc. Not good! Do I blame e-Bay for these kinds of problems? NO, I don't. Like many things in life, e-Bay is designed to work well for honest buyers and sellers - and it does. But in reality is't just a big high-tech virtual 'flea market.' Do you blame the flea market organizer if you get ripped off? Would we really want to see a whole lot of legislation and regulatory constraint in this grass-roots area of commerce? I wouldn't. So, Caveat Emptor! Let the buyer beware!

[hammerdownnow]

With 2227 sales and a 99.9% positive feedback, why would a person ruin his rep for a measely 5000? Not like he is making "One big score" then off to the Bahammas.

Did you see this Scagel set?

[Buddy Thomason]

Roc, that is a cool little set. I'll have to check it out later when I have some time.

I asked myself the same question about the seller as you did above. I did checked him out in so far as you can do that on eBay. He's had three different identities over time. Could mean nothing or could be a way to minimize the impact of negative feedback. eBay cautions folks about this when they sign up. Also, selling one fake, professing not to know it's a fake, etc. etc. etc, when you also sell lots and lots of legitimate items will have little negative impact in the grand scheme of things. In this case, if you read carefully - if the buyer is not satisfied, the item can be returned for a refund, minus a "20% restocking charge." If this knife sold for $5,000 or $1 higher than the current bid, and the buyer returned it, the seller makes $1,000. WOW!

[Buddy Thomason]

BUT, a buyer has only 10 days to return the item. Quoting from the seller's lengthy statement:

"* 100% \"AS DESCRIBED\" GUARANTEE , IF THE ITEM IS NOT AS DESCRIBED , ALL RETURNS MUST BE MADE WITHIN -- 10 DAYS OF THIS ITEM'S RECEIPT !

* BUYERS REMORSE GUARANTEE , I understand that people may change their minds about their purchases and that's why I offer a 10 day \" Buyer\'s Remorse \" period. If for any reason you would like to return an item, please notify me & then ship the item well packed and insured back to me.Your return will be subject to a 20% restocking fee."

Bid holding at $4,999

[Buddy Thomason]

Sold for $4,999 to a gentleman who..............lord, I'm just glad it weren't me. I'd sure like to know what happens from now on.

[hammerdownnow]

Buddy, Is sharing info good for making fakes, or for making good reproductions? The only thing that makes a knife a fake is the makers mark, Correct?

Is that an aluminum spacer? I cannot tell if the big spacer is wood or leather.

guard pic (click)

[Buddy Thomason]

Roc,
Can't say for sure what that metal spacer material is but the other one you mention is leather (I had to enlarge it and photoshop it myself to be sure). In fact it's two stacked pieces of leather.

I agree that when someone makes a knife and puts someone elses name on it - to me that's clearly an intent to deceive. Again, I don't profess to set or even know 'the standards' in this area, so I'm open to being educated. But I must admit, it would take a powerful argument to get me to agree that putting someone elses name or mark on a blade not made by the person whose name is being applied is ever anything but an intent to deceive.

As to the seller's intent - I cannot say. Sellers can be forgiven for not always being sure of what they're selling. On eBay sometimes legitimate sellers get impersonated by crooks too. So who knows? I don't know for sure who this seller really is. I don't want to guess out loud either. Nor will it be my crusade to root out the truth about whether the seller's intent is to defraud or not. Though I cannot speak to the seller's intent here, I do question the "20% restocking fee" on an item like this.

One thing I do know: this knife was not made by William Scagel.

[hammerdownnow]

Budddy, did you see this thread on a fake scagel?
fake Scagel