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Fine Embellishment Everything from hand engraving and scrimshaw to filework and carving. The fine art end of the knifemaker's craft. |
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#1
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A question for my American friends
Please explain to me why on earth you would want to buy a knockoff from asia, instead of supporting our own economy here in the US. Also by the time you pay shipping and duty it will cost you more than buying the real thing here. Its a wonder that artist who are supported by our economy woul make the decision to save a couple of dollars and buy from that market. I know that if the asian market starts to offer cheap engraving and people start sending there knives and guns there to be engraved, those of you who would buy a chep machine will be the first to complain. The new gravermax not the gravermach is selling for one hundred dollars less than the original, I think that Grs should be praised for that, they could have left the price the same and made more profit instead they lowered the price to make it more affodable. Then you want to go buy some knockoff legal or illegal(refering to Patents), with no track record on quality or support if you have a problem. This makes me wonder. Christian
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#2
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Well Christain,
If you really want to know I am planning to buy a couple of what ever is available in the way of engraving machines. I soon will have a couple gravermaxs. I plan to buy a couple of these if I can get them, I plan to buy a couple Lindsay set ups and I plan to buy a couple Ngraver set ups. I like to spread my money around! Ray |
#3
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Well Ray spreading your money around is wonderfull here in the USA. What are yougoing to do with all those setups? maybe its none of my business but I am just curios Chris
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#4
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Christian,
There are many posts on this and the other engraving sites of people trying to get into engraving and can't afford/justify the purchase of top of the line equipment. The air assit tools really help many with the learning curve. Myself included. I use a gravemiester, hammer, and push graver. I started with the NgraveR. These products are now marketed worldwide. Do you beleive that GRS would be willing to give up those markets to sell a few more machines in this country? I think that would actually affect some of your travel wouldn't it? I strongly support buying American. I also understand the lower labor costs and the migration of jobs out of th US. It is very sad but todays rreality that international marketing will continue. Fred __________________ Fred Marrinan rrrf68@bellsouth.net |
#5
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........that's my dirty little secret.
Ray |
#6
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Christian, I met you at a knife show in Orlando and had a chance to try the GRS tools. Since then I have been saving up for a Gravermax, Power Hone, etc. I have made some purchases, and am learning as I go. By the way, it was a pleasure to meet you, and you were very patient with my questions. Your enthusiasm was contagious.
I have been a lurker on this forum, but your post today made me want to respond. I do not have money to spare, and have been tempted to "save a few bucks" on the cheap (and usually inferior) equipment. But what stops me is my own experiences. I work for a lighting manufacturer, in the IT group. Over the past several years, I have watched us bleed jobs, while hiring cheap labor from anywhere but here. Our corporation celebrates our new chinese plants, while US manufacturing shuts down. I've watched my friends be "layed off" - fired - while the work is outsourced to foreign countries. This is why I want to get away from the Walmartization of business today. I have heard all the speeches - we have to stay competitive, everybody else is cutting cost by outsourcing, blah blah blah. And it is probably true. Businesses have to compete in today’s environment, where price is king. Every year the budget gets tighter, we have to justify the "resources" or "headcounts", or what used to be "employees". And yet we all still go to Walmart to buy the cheapest chinese whatever – and throw away our own jobs! Who will buy knives and guns, much less pay to have them engraved, when all the jobs are gone? And don’t get me started on the threat china is to us, while we give them the technology and money to build their weapons and manufacturing capacity. I understand that the road to success at engraving is a long one, and not guaranteed, but it makes me more hopeful than my current path. At least I can succeed or fail on my own merits – not the goals of a corporate bean counter I’ve never met. As long as somebody in the US has a job and can pay me! Sorry about the long post, but you hit a nerve. Bryan |
#7
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My humble opinion as a former GRS instructor is this: If you really want to learn how to engrave, and you have the skill needed to make knives by hand, or engrave really well by hand, you don't need a lot of equipment. I think it is far better to train on handtools and graduate to a gravermax, or Ngraver later, after you have REALLY learned what tool sharpening is about on handtools. You don't even need a block, a benchvise will do.Any power assisted engraving tool will drive tool steel through metal, but only a properly sharpened tool will work in your hand. And if you do not work with handtools, how will you ever really know if it is sharp? This photo shows all you need to start, or for an entire career , Ngraver stocks all of it except the ezelap stone ...and as to power tools, I would not risk money on the imports, my understanding is they do not have the good tolerances and materials that GRS does, I have a GRS handpiece that has 10 years on it and still works great. But,if anyone is using the imports, I would like to hear from them a few years from now about how they like them.
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#8
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Christian,
I went to GRS' website and looked at the new machines. I did not even know they had upgraded til yesterday. I have some quesitons if you don't mind answering them. I would like more info on the new machines. 1. From what I can see they have replaced the gravermax like I have with the Gravermax SC and no longer carry the old one or the gravermate is that correct? 2. What other improvements have they made to the gravermax SC other than front panel regulator control and universal electrical system? Have they installed one of the the upgraded regulators (Like I ordered through Linda and Lee at the Blade Show) in it or does it still have the same grade of regualtor they always have? 3. On the GraverMach machine, What improvements have they made beyond upping the SPM, front regulator control, and universal electrical system? Does this one have the upgraded regulator installed? 4. I am assuming they have put the improved foot control on both machines? Thanks, Ray Last edited by Ray Cover Jr; 12-03-2005 at 11:30 AM. |
#9
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I'm curious about the gravermach. With a the spm going to 8000, does GRS have a hand piece to accommodate? I wish someone would tell the politicians we do want to make products in America they seem to think we don't. That machine from China is probably a piece of crap anyway.
Mike |
#10
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Beginning Engraving
I would like to second Barry's remarks about beginning engraving. Having taught over 600 students the beginning steps to engraving over the last 22 year I am firmly convinced that the hammer and chisel is the best way for most people to start.
I believe that this gives them a better understanding and grounding in the manipulation and action of the various cutting tools. It also demonstrates to those people who lack the money to make a major investment in machine engraving tools that they have no reason to feel like a second class citizen. They understand that learning to engrave takes perseverance whether you use a hammer or a machine. With the exception of people with a physical handicap, everyone in my classes worked with a hammer and chisel for the first week. The students did use power sharpening equipment at first to quickly establish in their mind what a properly sharpened engraving tool should look like. Once they had this in mind, they were shown that engraving tools could be sharpened by hand using a bench grinder, followed by a stone or diamond lap, using a little practice and reasonable care. They did not have to rush out and buy power sharpening equipment, although I believe this should be their first investment in power tools, other than a small bench grinder. I, like Barry, have nothing against power engraving tools and use them often. My point is that there is no need to rush into the purchase of power tools in able to get a good and satisfying foundation in the art of engraving. This is just my opinion and is posted to help those beginning engravers who ask about what tools to buy in the beginning, especially when they indicate a shortage of available funds. Don’t feel handicapped with a hammer and chisel. I've heard of too many people, needlessly discouraged, because of the lack of money to buy every machine that comes down the pike. Good luck, and enjoy your adventure into engraving. John Barraclough. Last edited by John B.; 12-03-2005 at 05:04 PM. |
#11
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As one of John's students, I can attest to the benefits of learning with a hammer and chisel first. I believe that it helped me learn to sharpen tools properly as well as developing hand control and other essential skills. The class I took with Lee Griffiths at GRS honed my skills even further. I do use my Gravermax most of the time but I still use hammer and chisel for some operations. It's just nice to hear that tap-tap-tap once in a while.
David __________________ David Clevinger gunsmith/ engraver dcengraving@yahoo.com |
#12
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Another thought.
To my friend Ray C.
I hope your interest in having all these tools indicates that you are thinking of teaching some classes yourself in the future. With your outstanding artistry and skill, that would provide a wonderful opportunity for people seeking to advance their knowledge. To Christan D. I'm not at all sure that all foreign competition is a totally bad thing. While it is difficult for people whose livelihood is displaced or even threatened by it, it does have it's good side. Remember the junky American cars that were available to us in the 60's and 70's ? Without foreign competition, mainly Japanese, we would still all be driving those lousy cars. I proudly drive an American car because the quality was forced to improve by the competition from abroad. I'm not implying that American tools are not the best, but the marketplace tends take care of the competition. Yes, foreign countries may have lower labor costs right now, but America has technology on it's side. Just like engraving or anything else, if we don't provide a better product for the price we don't belong in the game. Just my thoughts on this touchy subject. I'm still enjoying your FEGA tape and duck casting showing your outstanding bulino work. Thank you for the great seminar you put on, even though you were ill at the time. Best wishes, John Barraclough, |
#13
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Ray
If you are going to teach some classes?.where do I send my check. Don?t worry about the equipment?I?ll bring my own. All I need is a little air and a bench. I even bring my microscope. John, you?re just a little bit too far. I think most of us who have been engraving for a while need a little refresher course?time to sit and discuss our art have a little fun and enjoy extended learning. That?s the great thing about this site. Everyday is a learning experience. We are all contributors to this very special art form whether we use hammer and chisel or air assist?or both. Our obligation to our art form is to pass it on. I think we all agree with that. Jim |
#14
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I really don't want to let the whole cat out of the bag yet because I do not have all my ducks in a row but I am working on it.
I have some financial obligations to take care of, equipment to collect, and a studio to semi-remodel. Once I get those thing taken care of I will let everyone know exactly what I am up to. Ray |
#15
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I'd like to chime in on the foreign/domestic argument. There was a time when that worked to push American companies to make better products. But that is not the issue any more. Today the competition is labor prices against labor prices. I work for the Delphi Corp. which is hotly in the news lately. If it goes down it most likely will topple GM. There used to be a saying that goes "what's good for GM is good for the country" because they are such a huge economic force in America. It is the purpose of the upper management of Delphi to get the wages literally down to the Walmart wage structure. They are pushing for $9 to 12/hr. and have stated that even if they get it they will still close the plants eventually and move the work to China. The Chinese (and I mean the government not the people) are not our friends and are handing us the noose to hang ourselves with. Our government is remiss if not criminal in allowing this to happen. It is greed on the part of the Elite that is sapping the vitality of America. Soon there will be the haves and the have-nots in the USA. I fear it is too late to stop it but I for one will try to choose a domestically produced product over a cheap import.
Sorry for the rant ...It's just so depressing. I'm just hoping that the few "Haves" that are left like to buy knives and pay for engraving. |
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blade, forge, knife, knives |
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