my best color engraved tiger head yet?

[Herman Knives]

Hi all, I recently finished this tiger head and would like your honest critiques on it.
What could I have done better. Please really tell me what you think about the technique
and the color work. Thanks a bunch all.
Here is the pic I used for this tiger. Looks to me he has more that 6 teeth between his fangs 2 larger teeth then the 6 small ones. The black stripes even on his muzzle are far from symmetrical.

[Carlos Goulart]

Fantastic!!!

[Ron Aggus]

Terrific detail, color and shading. The eyes have that penetrating stare that makes tigers look so menacing.

[Herman Knives]

Thank you all for the kind words. Ok c'mon guys Jim Small, Tim Adlam I really doo want some real critiques. If nobody tells me anything wrong how can I learn and improve?

[TexasJack]

I agree about the eyes.

[Bob Warner]

OK, I just typed out a response and then deleted it. Then decided to reply anyway.

I can't begin to do what you do, period. But you asked and I see some things that don't look right to my untrained eye. I will point them out but being a long time admirer of your work makes me want to walk softly here so as not to offend but I hardly believe you want to be patronized either. However, I know you are also a great guy so give me hell if I am wrong.

Actually at first it looked like you cut out a photo and put it on the bolster so the tiger looks like a tiger. I am obviously not an expert so I will comment on things other than the engraving. The tigers left side is not ground the same as the right to me. From the eyes down the right side looks smoother but the left seems to be indented a bit. Also right above the eyes in the center of the forehead it looks like a pencil pushed through a piece of paper by the way the colors are all together right there. And last the black at the bottom makes me look hard to find the bottom jaw. I see top teeth and that is all. Maybe you intend to add that I don't know.

These may be intentional and I as stated earlier am no expert but stuff like that jumps out at me as being out of place if you will.

Not trying to put it down by any means but you did ask. I could not replicate it if I had a real tiger and put the bolster on a necklace around its neck.

[David Broadwell]

Tim,

Since you asked, here are my comments:
1. The tiger's right eye is not the same color as his left, it's more green and less yellow.
2. The entire right eye area, eyeball and socket, look swollen and puffy. This includes the side of the head to the outside of the eye.
3. While the eye area looks swollen, the right upper lip area looks indented as if the tiger was missing some teeth on that side.
4. The teeth are incorrect. There should be 6 between the canines. You have too many and an improper spacing. There should be better symmetry. The canines are also on the small side. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tigergebiss.jpg shows a tiger's open mouth.
5. Having the tiger's lower jaw blacked out and not visible makes him look like an unfinished trophy, not a live tiger.
6. It would have been better if the nose was more symmetrical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India_tiger.jpg shows a close up of a tiger's head with a symmetrical nose.
7. In many cases I like the use of scrollwork in conjunction with an engraved animal or person. Some engravers do it often and it works well. However, there has to be a balance. Your engraving is heavy on all the color and very light on the scrolls. and it looks like just a filler for a little dead space.

Since you have posted this recent work here and asked for our evaluations, I do feel the need to ask you a question I think is pertinent. Before you took on this job, did you complete the outstanding orders for which you've already been paid but have not done? These should be taken care of before posting pictures of more recent work.

David

[Herman Knives]

David Broadwell, before I talk about your critique I think That for you to bring op my personal problems about owing some people some knives is in very poor taste and really none of yours or anyone elses business! I am working on the knives I do owe people but if I only work on prepaid knives, what do you suggest I live on and pay the bills with? I think bringing this up is very rude and frankly none of your #### business. I asked for evaluations of my latest engraving, not my personal life which somehow has become your business all of a sudden and I dont even know you.

Now as to your critique.....
1. The let eye is in a bit more shadow than the right eye and less bright color wise also.

2. Sorry but I fail to see any puffyness in the whole right eye side.

3.Maybe he is missing some teeth on that right side. The tiger on the other side has one lower fang missing. David I dont believe in nature that every animals face is perfectly symmetrical.

4. Again i think you are stuck on this symmetry thing. after i finish replying to all your comments i will post the photo of the actual tiger i did this engraving from and you will be able to see how small of canines this particular animal has.

5. Thats exactly the way this tiger looks in the photo. but in my rendering of him I did add hi lower middle teeth.

6. Jesus David , is everything in your life symmetrical?? Take a photo of your own face then print it from front and back and see how for of of symmetry eve your face is.

7. I dont know what to say to that except all the tiger pictures I gathered for reference only went down that bolster length only so far, all about the same distance so I added the scroll, yes to fill in the sort of dead space left by the proportions of most tiger pics I had.

I am sorry about my poor symmetry but find me any face of a person or animal especially a tiger with all that stripes and all going on. I have yet to find a tiger pic that the stripe pattern match on both sides especially around the forehead. I do thank you for your critique as I will learn something from it.

David and all. look at the stripe patterns on your own wikipedia of the tiger not showing his tonsils and look at just how unsymmetrical his face actually is, and that the stripes on both sides of his forehead dont even match symmetrically.

David i asked for honest critiques and will learn from them, but to me here you are just attacking me because I owe some people some knives and again I feel is none yours or anyone else's business! I am doing the best I can to catch up to them and they all WILL get their knives. But I still need to make new things to sell to pay the monthly bills. Unless of course you would pay them all for me every month till I get totally caught up with them?? It would be very hard to make them their knives if i lost my home and shop because I brought in no income to pay lifes bills now wouldnt it?? Also I would like for you to show me pics of any tigers face that is perfectly symmetrical. I have never really met you and now I have no desire to because of your actions here I have no respect for you at all. I bet all your knives are dead on perfectly symmetrical too aren't they?

[Herman Knives]

Ok Bob Warner. not a problem. you are right I dont want to be patronized and no need to tread softly, I asked for a real critique so I can improve that at my age and eyes getting older I am sure I miss a lot and appreciate guys like you point them out to me.

Bob it is totally hand bulino cut with thousands of dots and tiny lines. So it looks like anyone elses bulino work til I add the color.

1. The tigers left side is not ground the same as the right to me. I see that now as that bottom white line should be ground off and leave that area black like the other side.

2. I dont quite understand this one Bob what do you mean by the left side being indented a bit?

3. That hole in his forehead is a screw to screw it onto the knife liners.

4. Bob if you look close, his bottom middle teeth are in there.

Bob I appreciate your honest critique and dont take it as you putting it down. Iwill be thinking of those things on my next job. So, thank you very much

[David Broadwell]

Tim,

First, your comments about my critique. I will start by taking you back to your original post. You asked members on this forum for a critique of your work, and I have done that. I told you what I "think about the technique and the color work" and answered your question "what could I have done better". I have been a custom knife maker for almost 3 decades and have seen more than my fair share of engraving, both good and bad. I have studied engraving at a higher level than most because I have had it done to my knives and pens and want to make sure good work was done. I gave you my critique based upon my expertise as an experienced maker, and my observation of your previous work.

No, I don't believe any tiger is PERFECTLY symmetrical. There is, however, a difference between realistic symmetry or a lack thereof, and what you portrayed in your engraving. The second link I gave shows a tiger that is relatively symmetrical. The big differences between the left and right side of his head are the stripe patterns, not in his bone, muscle, or other tissue. I see that you've edited your original post to show the reference picture you used. That picture shows far more symmetry in color, bone structure, and tissue than your engraving did. It would have been pretty easy to find a lot of pictures on the web (I did in just a couple of minutes) to aid you.

The fact is, Tim, I've seen far better work from you. Usually they are nude or semi nude women, not large cats. I'm sure you've looked at more breasts than tigers, but that should not have stopped you from finding a range of images to work from. This lacks realism from an engraver who has done some mouthwatering work! Again, you asked for the critique. You are not some relatively new maker asking what we experienced guys think of his work. You should expect a real critique, not just a bunch of atta-boys and slaps on your back.

As far as bringing up your work owed to others, it has been made my business. We are a small close community, and we don't have to go looking for it, it finds us! And because it is small, one person acting in an inappropriate manner reflects badly on us all, whether it's fair or not. This was no different than if I commented on Rod Chappell or others, some of whom have been removed from the Guild because of their business practices. It was a statement of fact and not a personal attack on you. I know you only by reputation, not personally, so that was the basis for my comment. My statement about your showing your work and asking for comments was and is pertinent. No one expects you to not take work to pay your bills, but it is expected that you will also work hard to fill your past orders when you've been paid in full. It doesn't appear that that is the case when some of those orders are years old.

I stand by my original post. My words were carefully chosen to be objective and straight forward, and not a personal attack on you.

David

[Bob Warner]

Tim,

About the left side being indented a bit?
Don't look at the tiger, look at the edge of the metal. It is a symmetry thing with the shape of the piece. The tigers right side is ground in a smooth arc but the other side is more like two lines meeting in the middle. Hope that makes sense.

That hole in his forehead is a screw to screw it onto the knife liners.

Boy, I'm dumb. I should have known that. Guess I need to review bolsters 101 again.

[Herman Knives]

David, I did look up and have bunches of tiger pictures and just happened to like that one a lot.
Your critique on my work is appreciated, the last thing I want is a bunch of WOWS and how great you are. If you knew me at all you would know that when I ask for honest critiques thats exactly what I want. I dont have any problems with your critiques and I will learn from them so thank you. I just think you went a little overboard on all this symmetry stuff.

So as I said I am working on knives I owe people on a regular basis but i do feel you or anyone else thats keeps bringing it up every time I post a new piece of work at this point I believe is overkill. I can only work so much a day and turn our so many knives a month.
For you and others to keep bringing it up like a broken record always making sure its right there at the top to keep reminding all the world is very demeaning to me since as you said you really dont know me personlly at all. Do you wish to keep me down like a former xcon? I would think that as you say since it does reflect on all of us makers that you would rather try and find a way to help a fellow artist who's had some very serious health problems that have been one major reason I have not been able to work for months at a time! rather than to keep kicking me down. I have not nor ever had the intention of screwing anyone out of a nickel. David, if you were in such severe pain that you could barely move some days and could not possibly work I sure would be a little more understanding than just worrying that I am making every other maker in the business look bad also. I dont know you personally either but I see you as a rather selfish man with absolutely no real concern or genuine care for his fellow man unless you can benefit from it, and I wouldnt really care to know you further.
After this long experience with severe pain and so many pinched nerves surgery isnt even an option. Something still is seriously wrong as I have lost 50 pounds in the past 6 months. Maybe if I die soon then you'll have to find someone else to keep in the bad guy spotlight. I have learned even in the knife business where I thought I had a lot of friends, sadly I have learned that is not the case at all.

[David Broadwell]

Originally Posted by Herman Knives

So as I said I am working on knives I owe people on a regular basis but i do feel you or anyone else thats keeps bringing it up every time I post a new piece of work at this point I believe is overkill. I can only work so much a day and turn our so many knives a month.
For you and others to keep bringing it up like a broken record always making sure its right there at the top to keep reminding all the world is very demeaning to me since as you said you really dont know me personlly at all. Do you wish to keep me down like a former xcon? I would think that as you say since it does reflect on all of us makers that you would rather try and find a way to help a fellow artist who's had some very serious health problems that have been one major reason I have not been able to work for months at a time! rather than to keep kicking me down. I have not nor ever had the intention of screwing anyone out of a nickel. David, if you were in such severe pain that you could barely move some days and could not possibly work I sure would be a little more understanding than just worrying that I am making every other maker in the business look bad also. I dont know you personally either but I see you as a rather selfish man with absolutely no real concern or genuine care for his fellow man unless you can benefit from it, and I wouldnt really care to know you further.
After this long experience with severe pain and so many pinched nerves surgery isnt even an option. Something still is seriously wrong as I have lost 50 pounds in the past 6 months. Maybe if I die soon then you'll have to find someone else to keep in the bad guy spotlight. I have learned even in the knife business where I thought I had a lot of friends, sadly I have learned that is not the case at all.

Tim, I have never mentioned your owing work to people before. I also don't recall seeing a lot of posts on this forum about it. If it keeps coming up it's because the situation isn't being taken care of. As for the pity party, we all have things to deal with. You're no different than anyone else. If you will take care of those customers who have paid you for your work, you won't be in the "bad guy spotlight".

David

[Herman Knives]

Pity party now, you really dont have any good feelings for anyone but yourself, do you? Saying anything more to you is like talking to a brick wall without a heart at all. Such a complete waste of time even replying to you in the first place.