This is what I mean by collecting ...

Bob brought something up that triggered a memory. I was talking to Bob Lum and he mentioned that he had a few knives for sale, that didn't sell in Japan, cause they didn't meet the taste of the buyers out there. 1) the knives were largish, the Japanese have very strict knife/sword laws 2) they were perhaps a bit too tactical. The Japanese market had shifted and moved heavily toward gent's and art knives. the point of this is that now you need to cater to tastes in the global sense. I agree that the Moran's, Warenski's etc. of knifedom will not have a problem finding buyers. Just as there are people who will always have money so too there will always be knifemakers that always sell. Go to a knife show some time and check out the guys and gals who sell out in under an hour of the first day of a three day show.

Alex, I can see that we are at the start of something that could turn into a monster if we encourage it.

Jerry ...

The internet will be so important one day, that I would venture to say ... "If I could figure out how to add the two remaining senses, touch and smell to the user experience, I could show you how to replace even the shows."

I'm already predicting the biggest shows in the world, one day, will be organized and run by net communities. In the trade show business, "whoever gets the most people through the gates, wins!" That's where all the biggest players will be. Right? In ten years, our audience will be 30-40x larger than any print publication subscriber base right now. They are caught in a downward trend, big time.

The net is the ultimate successor. Now, let's take it to the moon. The view is better!

Alex

Hi Jerry,

Yes, I remember the "bad times" of the 80's. Actually, for me it was the good times. Graduated college, got married, our first child was born, and I spent 5 1/2 years in the 101st Airborneas a Infantry Officer. We actually had a training budget. We went to the field a lot, I got to travel to several "specialty" schools. Oh yea, in 1986 I became a custom knife dealer! But I digress!

The 80's, for many was the decade of excess. This was evident in the custom knife market as well. Towards the close of the decade and into the 90's the Japanese played a very big role in the custom knife market.
I saw "teams" of buyers at the shows. One would pick out the knives, a second would pay for the knives and the third and possibly forth carried the knives. There were a couple of other big buyers as well. The money was flowing, high dollar knives were in their glory. Then it happened our economy went soft. So Americans for the most part stopped buying expensive knives. Also, they were pushed out of the market as many of the top makers built knives with the Japanese in mind.

The main culprit in this mix was the interframe folder. This is the knife the whispers started talk about some new machine..CNC!

To make a long story short, makers got greedy and dealers, engravers got greedy and perhaps the worst of this group, the dealers got incredibly greedy. That was the beginning of the end for many makers as makers knowing the value of their interframes, jacked up the prices. Knowing that dealers were getting sometimes a 100% mark up.

This is where the problem first appeared. I buy a interframe from a dealer, 6 months later I want to trade it in. Oddly enough that interframe is $2,500 on the dealers table, but only worth $800 when I am trying to trade it in. Dealers were not thinking long term.

Then the Japanese economy went soft. One dealer in the US, who is no longer around. Was given hundreds of very high quality knives from the Japanese market (who's Yen was still stronger than our Dollar, consequently, knives could be sold at very low US prices and yet only cause a minimal loss, say 25%. Remember, when you are unloading any kind of merchandise, a 25% loss is very acceptible.)

So, the market became flooded with very high quality knives at very low prices. The dealers bought them up, anticipating a huge killing. Well, the word got out and collectors seeing the hand writing on the wall, started to, not buy, but SELL! Once on this slippery slope the makers, dealers and collectors for the most part cold not recover in the near term. Some did recover in the long term, others never recovered.

I know dealers today, who still have some interframes they cannot get their money out of.

So in the early 90's it really started to look bad for the custom knife market. Then in 1993-94 a new folder started to appear. They had names like Carson, Terzuola, Crawford, Elishewitz and Emerson. For the first 9 years as a dealer you could have counted the number of folders I sold on two hands. Then in September of 1995 my first ad appeared in Tactical Knives. That ad generated over $18,000 in sales (makers are you paying attention to that number). One other thing, that ad was free. As this was a new magazine and they wanted to show me what this magazine could do for me. I have never missed advertising in Tactical Knives since.

A large majority of the makers and press thought the Tactical Folder was a fad, a few "wannabe's" buying knives. As usual most knife makers showed there lack of understanding the custom knife market. It was not the wannabe's buying these knives. It was the former multi-thousand dollar collector buying these. Their thinking was, well I can't take much of a loss, and worse case scenario, I CAN ALWAYS USE THEM!

I have been hearing, mostly from makers, for the last 4 years that the tactical knife market is dead. Sorry guys it's not. So while tactical folder sales may be slowing a little, the tactical fixed blades are now the hottest knife in the market.

The marketing and selling of custom knives is no different from any other collectible. All markets ever created follow a basic pattern. Birth, growth, maturity and death. Those of you who have been around for 10 or more years have seen markets that were "the market'. Interframe Folders, Art Daggers, Damascus Bowies and Fighters, Hunters. All at one time owned the market. Just like certain materials, brass, nickel sivler, stainless steel. 20 years ago all of these were acceptable for guard, bolsters and frames. Now it's titanium and Damascus.

Do makers still use brass, nickel silver and stainless steel. Yes. Why?
Because in the case of brass and nickel silver they are cheap and easy to use. Of course seeing these materials on a knife (with a few exceptions. that being periord pieces that call for these materials to be used) indicates to you, the buyer that the maker is new. It also indicates to you to do one of two things. Ask them to use Stainless Steel, Titanum or Damascus. If they come back with a negative response, the opt for the second choice, don't buy their knife.

So the market is always changing and evolving. Sometimes in concert with the economy, most times inspite of it.

As Alex is pointing out, every time something starts to fail or does fail. This is not a failure in the business sense of the word. It becomes an opportunity. Just as your oponents strengths can be expolited as even a strength has a weakness (how zen like).

The internet is exploiting some of the old strenghts of "brick and mortar" stores. The Internet store offers exceptional selection at very competitive prices. However, this is mostly taken advantage of by those who have been to the brick and mortar store and already know the sizes, colors, etc. that they like.

Business has changed so much in the last 10 years. But one thing has remained constant. Those with the forsight, intelligence, confidence and intestinal fortitude are called entrepreneurs. While others stand around and give you 100 reasons why something will not work. Or worse yet bury their heads in the sand to the changes occuring right in front of their eyes. Entrerpreneurs will be the ones who will ultimately be successful.

This "mind set" is why my signature line on my email reads:

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

I stopped being merely a dealer when I was no longer satisfied with just buying and re-selling the custom knives that were available.

First with the LDC Custom Knife series and most recently with the Vanguard series. I and the makers I work with are changing the face of custom knives. This elite group of makers have accepted my challange to think outside the box.

Consequently, we have limited editions (which enhance the collectability and possible investment potential), we uses the lastest materials and incorporate the best procedures to insure our parts have the very best tolerances. These knives are drawn with AutoCad on the computer, there is no guess work, we know they work before they are made. We do not expect our customers to "Buy" mistakes. We purchase in bulk, there by reducing the cost that is usually passed on to the customers.

I came up with this concept while in Graduate School. But it took 5 years to bring it to reality. Want proof it works. 17 of the knives were featured in different knife magazines last year. Ten of them were featured in two different articles in Tactical Knives. Is there any other dealer out there that can say this, no. Is there a maker out there that can say they had 17 different knives in magazines in one year, no.

Now this is not boasting, it is just a fact. This occured through preparing a business and marketing plan, securing the capital and getting the right people involved.

I used to believe that any one can do this. Truth is not any one can. It takes a lot of planning, patience and belief in yourself and the people you are working with.

However, the Internet is the perfect tool for this. Working with Alex to get your web site built is the first step. Then taking it a step further to understand E-business marketing and direct internet marketing.

Do you understand the concepts of "Buzz", what the "tipping" point is for a particular product and what are who the characters are and what roles they play in pushing a product towards the "tipping" point.

Do you undestand the concept of permission marketing and how it works hand in hand with today's custom knife market and the sales of those knives on the Internet?

Entrepreneurs understand these concepts.

For you custom buyers out there, especailly those who are looking at investment potential of a maker. If he or she does not understand their position in a particular knife market, then they have none.

This is the first indication you have that these makers are not in it long term.

As the Internet becomes more and more popular, knife makers will no longer be able to use the "good old boy" marketing strategy. Need proof, ask anyone that went to the Guild Show last year in New Orleans.

Need more proof! Why are there still 15 table available for the show this year in Orlando! Wasn't this the place where "miracles" happened.

People forget that when the show left Orlando 5 years ago, sales were slowing. They also forget about the Florida Art Knife Invitational that was held in Orlando for 4 years in a row in January. This show had possibly the best line up of well known "investment grade" makers I have ever seen at one show. Did any of you attend it this January.

No, because the show no longer exists.

The Guild Show no longer boasts the best line up. Most of it's world class makers decided to not support the Guild last year and passed on the show.

If you own these makers knives, sell them now. They have hit a plateau , expanded their comfort zones and are telling you "I have peaked". They are going to do nothing else to help all of you who have supported them in the past. They are not going to shows, they don't advertise, they don't have a web site. Now exactly how are the new collectors supposed to find these makers?

Question, do you think these world class makers not doing anything to promote themselves to the next generation of knife buyers will help or hinder your chances of selling that knife for a profit. Hell, just break even.

Well this went a lot longer than I thought. I apologize for the length.

I hope you can take away something positive from this.

Les, that was extremely lucid. Well stated.

A few more weeks of posting and you will have all the material you need for your book

The book we're going to write is history!

Add instantaneous worldwide communication to every plugged-in custom knife enthusiasts' home with the content resources they require and what you'll have is not a market of, but "the custom knife industry".

The balance of information flow (which also means power)is changing in the custom knife industry right now.

Everything!, one day ... associations, magazines, mail marketing, shows, schools etc., will be a subsidiary activity controlled by the largest specialized net communities of users in this world.

Trust that ... and it's coming! Happening right now, in fact.

Combining all CKD linked sites, we get 3x as many, and possibly more monthly visitors as both, Blade and KI have subscribers.

When we build the machinery that funnels the worlds custom knife activity into one user-community system matrix, adding the fact that our content is live, convenient and dynamically archived and expanding, you'll see where the world community forms.


"Let he who hath ears ... hear!"

Alex

Les,
Don't mind the length. I for one am willing to listen if your willing to expound! I want to be able to learn something new about knife collecting every day.

And how is the book coming along?

Alex, your enthusiasm amazes.

I had a longer diatribe, but lost it to spell check. in any case what it came down to is that what I meant to say earlier is that there are many varied forces affecting the knife market, technology and economics being the big ones. I remember the 80's economic downturn very well, I know that it affected many differing markets. I haven't been at this as long as some, about 10 years or so collecting customs, very seriously only the last 3-4 years. (it's an economic thing, I've finally got the money to buy some) But I've been a knife and sword guy my whole life. I want to see the CKD at the forefront, it would be a gas! I'm being a bit of the devil's advocate, but I'm just saying that the stuff you anticipate isn't the problem, it's the unexpected stuff that is.

I guess in the end, it's always a reflection of the best ideas coming forward.

I'm banking that knifemakers, enthusiasts and collectors are better off with more control and access to the global community they enjoy. The technology is the conduit that we use to connect our community together. It will do what we design it to do.

Alex

REASONABLE PRICE AND QUALITY WILL NEVER GO OUT OF STYLE. FADS COME AND GO AND OVER THE PAST 30 YEARS I HAVE SEEN THEM ALL. YOU GUYS ARE CONFUSING THINGS A LITTLE. IT SEEMS THAT YOU ARE COMBINING DEALERS,INVESTORS,COLLECTORS AND USERS ALL IN ONE CATEGORY OF PURCHASERS. THEY ARE 4 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AVENUES AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH.
1-DEALERS DO IT FOR MONEY(INCLUDING ENTREPRENEURS)
2-INVESTORS DO IT FOR MONEY--NO KIDDING
3-COLLECTORS DO IT FOR LOVE--HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY
4-HUNTERS DO IT BECAUSE IT A BETTER TOOL
MOST MAKERS DO KNIVES BECAUSE THEY ENJOY DOING IT, NOT FOR THE MONEY. I ENJOY SELLING KNIVES TO PEOPLE WHO LOVE KNIVES
I GUESS I AM JUST OLD FASHIONED,AND I THINK I WILL STAY THAT WAY AS LONG AS I SELL ALL THE KNIVES I CAN MAKE

LOL Made me snort soda through my nose Rade! Thanks!

Rade,

Your absolutely right! All of us are correct, but we're correct about different things. I as you said look at this from a collectors point of view, Les from the entrepreneurs / purveyors point of view and Alex from the net as marketing tool point of view.

Quality and good price will never go out of style no matter what the product.
I'm asking how do we figure out if the quality is there and the e price is right.
Les is trying to teach people how to figure this out. His theory being that if he educates the consumer the consumer will go to him! (not a bad theory)
and Alex is saying that the net can be used to accomplish all this.

Did I leave something out? :evil:

No ...

I'm the only one who's correct!

Ya'll follow me! :



Rade,
That's easy to say coming off that big sales year you had on the web. The AV design you're on takes care of the things I'm talking about for you automatically, a layer deeper than what you see. It may appear that what you're saying is what's happening with your sales is, you know "business as usual" like always, but my point is in the communication technology itself.

People will always buy when the conditions are in place. That is when the object they desire is deemed to have value to them that exceeds it's cost by 1 cent and they are ready to buy. And, you make a quality piece that more than meets that challenge. But, that does not explain why your orders went to buyers all over the planet through distribution channels and gateways that did not exist in your business model before.

Think about that ...

Alex

Hi Rade,

I agree with you that quality products will always sell. The problem today for makers and to buyers (to a lesser degree) is that the makers producing quality knives has increased so much that the marketing ideas that worked even 5 years ago, no longer have the impact they once did.

The old question..If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it make sound?. It's the same with makers today. If they make a qualtiy knife and no one knows it are they a knife maker. Of course they are. However, if no one buys that knife how long can they stay a knife maker.

So it is important for makers to stay current, continue to promote their knives and attend shows to stay in touch with current customers and to meet potential customers.

I always find it interesting when custom knife makers want to seperate the buyers of their knives. As if somehow the money is different from one person to the next. Im pretty sure it all spends the same.

Rade I think you are a little quick to seperate all of custom knife buyers. Putting us into nice neat catagories that divide us by names and our motiviation to buy knives. As most of those motivations can cross over into each of your categories.

Dealers (including dealers who became Entrepreneurs), don't just sell knives for the money. Custom Knife Dealers may be the ultimate knife nut! I know that is why I became a custom knife dealer. Yes, it is true we do make money off of selling custom knives, you know like...Custom Knife Makers.

Rade, every knife maker I know, including you expects to be paid MONEY for their knives. True, on occasion some will trade for something they want. Most of the time the maker is looking for cash.

Rade Im not saying this applies to you. However, there are a lot of knife makers out there who feel that dealers do nothing to earn the discount they receive from makers. This lends itself to the mis-guided thinking that dealers only sell custom knives for the money aspect.

If this is in fact true, that the dealer is not doing anything to promote your knives, why do you give them a discount?

All custom knife buyers deserve the very best knife they can get for their money. No matter what what the amount of money they have to INVEST!

This is done through marketing (and there are several very effective types). The best venue for selling custom knives will always be knife shows. However, over the next 10 years you will start to see every magazine to be on the Internet. Mostly because of the positive impact this will have on the publishers "bottom line". Imagine, no paper costs, no printing costs and no shipping costs! Propose that to any publisher and watch them drool! Cyber magazine subscriptions will be the way of the future.

I have always held that knife buying is generational. The "old guard" is starting to give up reigns to the younger "next generation" of makers. Within the next 10 years, most if not all of the old guard makers will have retired or will be making knives on a very limited basis.

So now is a very good time for hunters, collectors, investors and dealers to be looking for a rising star. More than likely you will find that maker on the Internet.

Guys I know that all products must have a sells force, be it individual maker, dealer, show or store. I don't have a problem with any of these. The more exposure, we as knifemakers have, the more product we can sell. The internet will give us this exposure. This will expose our work to thousands of new customers who have never gone to a knife show or read a knife magazine. The dealers who go to the shows across the country deserve to earn a reasonable return for their investment. It is an expensive way to promote and to sell knives, but; enjoying what you do makes this more fun than work.

The point I was trying to get across was that not all knife buyers are profit motivated. Some buy knives just because they want it, not because it may increase in value

I will give you an example, of what Rade is talking about. I am going to the Las Vegas Classic. I just started my business in earnest the last few days. I plan on representing the small makers, the lesser and unknown makers. I already have 5-6 makers in the wings. I am taking 7 of their knives, 2 from one 3 from antoher etc. I am NOT doing it for profit, but to get them shown, and "out there" I only ask 10% from my makers, I am taking about $1100 worth of knives. Means $110 profit (right) if I sell all the knives. I figure all told when I get back from LV my outlay will have been between $2600 and $2800. So am I making a profit? No, I am trying to get these guys out there, shown, known. Their stuff is IMHO awesome, too good to just be sold locally.


Sure in the long run, when my site takes off, and I start selling $1000 knives, and my makers become well known( there is serious talent here) I will reap the benefits, if they don't go on to greener pastures

Just wanted you to know Rade not all of us dealers are out for the big bucks, sure it would be great, but I'm not holding my breath!

BTW any of you new, lesser known makers check out my site. You too Rade ;-)

Oh ... without a doubt.

The largest consumer market in custom knives falls exactly where you point out ... users and enthusiast collectors.

I would make the point that the art/value collector markets are what will see percentage growth due to the nets ability to reach across boundaries.

The real trend to watch is "portal development". It is said in all net circles "he who controls the portal, controls his fate."

Watch what happens when we make everything on the custom knife net (our community) available from one single, customizable, starting page that has links (one level or less away) to every piece of custom knife information produced daily one the net that anyone could want. Call it "the CKD Portal" .

Imagine then serving information to that same interface with current discussion topics, the latest breaking materials and supply deals, personal web e-mail and address books, radio channels, video archives of maker demonstrations, real-media, ICQ, Firetalk, video-messaging, and searchable links of archive and community sites. Now, imagine all this being specific to the needs of our custom knife industry. That's where it's going ... that's where we're going ... we want the portal!

When you want to do the "new car" thing, you'll plug-in to the "new car" portal. When you want to plugin to the custom knife world for a while, you'll come to ours, the "custom knife portal."

The person or persons, regardless of the special interests of the community, who provides the best community interface for their people to plugin to, will be the big winners in this game over time.

Sites like BladeForums, ABS, Knifeforums, KI.com, Blade.com and CKD for instance, will only be minor links on the "daily view" side of the portal view equation for those who use them. The big "pearl" is the portal! The portal supercedes all in terms of community traffic. The portal is where you do the best job of answering every need. Answer the most need, and you win the interface. Win the interface and you control the channels. Control the channels and you own it all!

That's the secret to this gig!

Alex