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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 08-01-2006, 10:03 AM
xardoz xardoz is offline
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Nicholson files ARE 1095

Hi all.

I picked up several large Nicholson aluminum/soft metal files this weekend for a song to use as blade stock. While searching for tips/tutorials for using them, I noticed that there was some controversy as to just what steel Nicholson is using these days.

No one seemed to know for sure, so I contacted Cooper Tools, the parent company of Nicholson, asking for clarification.

I just received a reply from Peggy Overton (Customer Service) at Cooper Tools:

Quote:
Hello Brian,

Our files are made of C1095 steel.

Thanks
Peggy Overton
Customer Service
Hope this clears things up.
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  #2  
Old 08-01-2006, 11:08 AM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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I wonder why they don't stay sharp any longer then they do if they are 1095. My shop is polluted with worn out nicholson files. They look new but they lose their edge after a couple knives. At least they can be made into good knives.
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  #3  
Old 08-01-2006, 01:15 PM
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TexasJack TexasJack is offline
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I think the subject of file steel has been focused on what companies other than Nicholson use. There are so many coming in from China under every 'brand' imaginable that it's hard to say what steel you might end up with. A lot of them are just case hardened - and they definately have a limited life span!


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  #4  
Old 08-01-2006, 02:34 PM
xardoz xardoz is offline
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True, there's no way to tell with imports, but I had run across a few posts with people saying that Nicholson "used" to be strictly 1095, but they weren't sure if that was still the case. It's nice to have confirmation from the manufacturer, if nothing else.
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  #5  
Old 08-01-2006, 05:21 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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There was considerable discussion about Nicholson's last year. Specifically, the 'Black Diamond' labled files. Someone indicated that they had had them tested and discovered that they were identical to 1095 except in their carbon content. That test indicated a considerably higher amount of carbon. I can't recall what it was.

In any case, I buy only Nicholson Black Diamond bastard files at the local scrap yard at three for a buck and they make awesome blades!


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  #6  
Old 08-02-2006, 01:28 AM
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orvet orvet is offline
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I have some Nicholson files that are 25+ years old and are still sharp. I used to rebuild rotary screw air compressors and there was a lot of file work doing that. I have used my files a lot and for the most part they are still good and sharp. I wonder if they have changed over the years.
I went to look for some 4" files to do some file work & all I could find were made in China. I did the file work on one knife and they were dull. I finally found some Nicholsons and 1 file cost me more than the whole set of Chinese files, but it was a lot sharper. I have only done two knives with them, but so-far-so-good.

I have some old Simmons files that are good also, but can't find anyone locally who sells them.

It is nice to know that when my Nicholsons wear out I can make blades out of them.

Dale
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  #7  
Old 08-02-2006, 09:10 PM
EdgarFigaro EdgarFigaro is offline
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I had come across this on a website when doing a search for it as well.
Dunno how accurate it is or anything. He didn't say where his testing was done, but he shows an image of the file piece on the site.

Quote:
Nicholson File
1.23%C .37%Mn .21%Si .16%Cr .09%Ni .04%Mo
(extra low P & S and very low W, Ti, Al, B, Cu)
Here all this time I figured it was plain ol' 1095, turns out to be
a steel that's referred to quite a bit in most metallurgy books but
is not named, numbered or listed by AISI or SAE, only referred to as
"1.22% carbon steel". Taps, dies and reamers are also made of it.
So, a using-knife made from old files will be in good company. wink.gif
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/testsamples.htm


Had posted this in a file discussion over on Fogg's site.


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  #8  
Old 08-03-2006, 12:25 AM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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But shouln't they first work as files before becomming a knife?
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  #9  
Old 08-03-2006, 02:10 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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I don't do a great deal of work with my files, but I have a full set of new Nicholson's and a few Nicholson specialty files. They are as good as any I've ever used.

The old 'black diamonds' are the only ones I make knives from and it is the 'black diamonds' that I believe match the alloy content Edgar listed above. It helps to anneal them twice!


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  #10  
Old 09-09-2006, 02:20 PM
havoc1969 havoc1969 is offline
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I have about 8 nicholson "bastard" files, metal files from my work that we are getting rid of... I work for an oilfield machine shop! I would love to send them to a knifemaker and do a trade, give him a bunch and get a few knives out of it....

If interested, email me at havoc1969@hotmail.com and maybe we can work something out...
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  #11  
Old 02-14-2016, 03:21 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Edgar Figaro has the old formula.

I don't know about the new one, but I have a nicholson file set of Habilis precision files I bought in 1978 and they are still sharp. I have kept them oiled, but the other files from then I have are still mostly doing well except the ones I used a lot on stainless. I think they had a touch of chrome in them and of course the manganese would account for their edge holding.
I have a big 12" bastard nicholson, 5/32 thick that is becoming a knife and a 10" 1/8 that is becoming a drop point hunter too. I've had those files for over 40 years and it's about time to recycle them. I annealed them a while back and it's about time I finished them. Hope they take a good blueing.
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  #12  
Old 02-14-2016, 04:29 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Wow! I remember this conversation. Hard to believe its been a decade!

Interestingly, many years ago, but many years after this thread started, I called Nicholson. They would not reveal the steel blend as they considered it a trade secret. However, when I pressed for how I should heat treat a knife made from one of their files, the gentleman stated without hesitation, that I should follow a W-2 procedure for best results.


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  #13  
Old 02-14-2016, 05:46 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Glad to hear the W2 HT

I was wondering about it. I knew they keep their formula a secret because they make some of the best files. Has anyone heard of Heller files? They are American made and they are pretty good too. I have some half round files by them.
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  #14  
Old 02-15-2016, 11:49 AM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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I think the Black Diamond files are 1.3% carbon steel (C130).

The current Nicholsons being 1095, but their heat treat SUX. The stuff from Mexico and Brazil is horrible. Bends in both axes (yes that is the plural of axis, strange right?), teeth that are dull to begin with, rows of teeth not even aligned properly, and BAD heat treating.

USA made Nicholsons (new old stock) are the ones to buy if you have to go Nicholson.

I will admit, it's been a couple years since I've looked at a current production Nicholson file, but the ones I was using a few years ago were crap. Went to Simonds brand files, along with Pferd, and haven't looked back.
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  #15  
Old 02-16-2016, 05:14 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Nicholson performance went "south" when they started farming out the production south as Sami indicated above. I have tested several of the imported Nich's and think that steel itself is still decent quality, just the end product is crap shoot. Really can't say for sure though (not going to spend money to find out), but shop testing indicates this to be correct.
I have come across some other imports that tested very well, but most don't. Just like to experiment and most show up for free so why not?

I have found that many times when a "quality" file doesn't hold it's cutting edge(s) very long, it's due to improper filing technique. As with any edged tool there are right ways and wrong ways. Be worth observing, good files are not cheap. That being said, my favorite "draw file" is an old Nicholson BD that was used by my granddad. I use it a lot, it still cuts clean and I have been using it off and on for a little better than 40 years.

On the Hellers, not had one of their regular tool files to play with but have messed with several of their farriers' rasp. The FR's do not seem to have as much carbon as Nich's and Simmons and don't respond well to the HT used for 1095 or W2. Can't tell you why, but best quench results have been with brine for these. I just decided early on to use them for wrap around hawks with a high carbon steel bit insert and be done with it. If someone has worked out a better HT for the Hellers, I'm all ears (eyes I guess). I've got around 50 of them.

Side note: I never purposely make a blade out of a new file.....they should complete their primary occupation first.


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Last edited by Crex; 02-16-2016 at 05:17 AM.
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1095, back, bee, blade, brand, diamond, drop point, edge, file, files, heat, heat treat, hunter, knife, knives, made, make, recycle, sharp, stainless, steel, trade


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