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Historical Inspiration This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historical knife design and its influence on modern custom knife work.

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  #1  
Old 09-07-2004, 07:18 PM
Jeff Pringle Jeff Pringle is offline
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Archaeological sword measurements

Recently got a copy of Jaap Ypey?s article ?Zwaarden?, from the magazine ?Spiegel Historiael? of 1978. There?s a table of measurements of 6 swords from the late 8 ? early 9th centuries in the Netherlands (Wijk bij Duurstede) with this info:
Blade length: 75-78 cm
Blade width: 5.0 ? 5.5 cm
Blade thickness: 0.4 ? 0.6 cm
Grip length: 8.9 ? 10.5 cm
Weight from ~810 to ~1060 grams (this is prob?ly just a measure of how corroded they are)
Fullers go from ?none? to ?strong? (depth unspecified)
All are 4-bar (2 each side) chevron Damascus (usually pointed toward tip, one toward hilt) with an angle of twist between 60 and 80 degrees.
Hilts are either type H?ish or three-lobed pommels.
Pretty uniform group, no?

Also mentions an analysis of a sword from the 4-5th century Nydam bog with Damascus of seven layers alternating 0.1% and 0.6% carbon steel, with a phosphorus content that varies between 0.16% and 0.21%. Edge metal with only 0.29% - 0.43% carbon, if I got the translation right. I think the next paragraph mentions the need for more metallographic studies, but I?ve not figured out the Dutch yet.
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  #2  
Old 09-07-2004, 10:07 PM
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J.Arthur Loose J.Arthur Loose is offline
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In that book "The Viking Sword," that just came out they have good measurements, though some complain about the lack of weight measurements & balance points. I had the same thought... ummm... corroded!

Huh... the carbon / phosphorus thing reminds me of an article on the production of swords:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Theres some nice metallurgical discussion in that one.

Phosphorus is one alloying element that can inhibit, or at least slow carbon migration... at least according to something I read somewhere, sometime. High nickel or pure nickel contents will definitely do it. Anyway, from what I understand, you could theoretically have hard & soft layers in the pattern-welded area of a PW blade with a plain carbon edge if you got the mixes just right and then heat-treated just right... but otherwise, according to a study by John Verhoeven & Howard Clark, (Carbon Diffusion between the Layers in Modern Pattern-Welded Blades, "Materials Characterization". Volume 41, Issue 5, November 1998, pg 183-191) carbon migration is almost unavoidable.

Interestingly, to me at least, I once made a long bowie, in fact the 'Norse Bowie,' on my website, by using the PW material made of 1095 & mild steel for the spine and edging it with a plain laminate of 1084. The average carbon content should have been about 65.666 (repeating, heh.) Upon oil quenching, the edge material hardened and the spine stayed dead soft. The first clue was the wicked katana-curved thing that came out of the quench tank; I had carefully forged & ground a very straight blade! Since the carbon in the blade should have been relatively homogenous, the manganese offered the only reasonable explanation. Anyway... the whole hard/soft layer question is one of the reasons I wanted to make some alloys that were close to period, because honestly, there are supposed to be a very few studied swords that do exhibit large carbon/hardness differences in the PW areas. Someone once told me that they were in a workshop with Daryl Meier, who explained all about unavoidable carbon migration and then documented one of these swords that should be an 'impossibility,' just, I think, to prove that old smiths was sometimes very tricksy smiths. Anyway.

That was a really long way of saying that carbon contents, trace alloy contents & heat treating techniques make for a really complicated study that someone with academic bucks should really pursue and then share with the likes of us. Until then I'll half ass it.


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Last edited by J.Arthur Loose; 09-07-2004 at 10:11 PM.
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2004, 09:20 AM
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Don Halter Don Halter is offline
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If enough of us half-asses get together we could get ass-tonishing results .


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  #4  
Old 09-09-2004, 11:21 AM
mstu mstu is offline
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Fame would ass-uredly be yours.
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Old 09-09-2004, 04:37 PM
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Which being us to one of my favorite talking points. So little research is actualy done on the technologys used. In fact many an academic just gosses over it.

My favorite was the "iron swords" in the North Atlantic Saga display. I mean this is the Smithsonian folks, I would expect them to at least get it right. But nope, that was expecting too much. Swords in the case, four of which were clearly pattern welded. (as shown in the differencial corrosion patterns) One even appeared to be a ladder pattern core with a straigh laminate edge. But no documentation (and no photos allowed).

While I know a large number of people out there aren't doing the best historical recreations. And we all suffer from that reputation. I would just for once like to see the academics use folks like us to test the how and why. Use us as a living lab. Academics could greatly expand there areas of study (and maybe actualy test a therory before publishing it (I know silly idea)). and we would gain knowledge to do better recreations.

Hey! Where did this soap box come from?????


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Old 09-09-2004, 05:53 PM
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There is a gap between those who know and those who do...

I almost did a Master's in experimental metalsmithing / archaeology at Goddard here in VT but then the school went all to Hel. Besides. WTF would the degree be good for? More debt?


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Old 09-10-2004, 11:14 AM
Jesse Frank Jesse Frank is offline
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I agree, it would be great to have something like that going on. At least we have guys like Don and Vince Evans and the like who do a bit more in depth study of the originals as well.

I need to get out there and do that too. How would I go about setting up a session to handle and measure them?
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Old 09-10-2004, 11:20 AM
mstu mstu is offline
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Yeah, what Jesse said, how do you go about setting up a visit? I used to have a good friend in art history who knew all about getting into museum collections, even in other countries, but unfortunately I lost touch with him a few years back. But maybe the M.A. I got in archaeology would still be some use???
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Old 09-10-2004, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Frank
I agree, it would be great to have something like that going on. At least we have guys like Don and Vince Evans and the like who do a bit more in depth study of the originals as well.

I need to get out there and do that too. How would I go about setting up a session to handle and measure them?

You have to build a relationship with the museum in question. Contact the curator in charge of the collection you would like to see. If it is a local collection, build a relationship with the museum foundation (the fund raising arm). It also helps if you can get a letter of introduction. Your first time, the letter will have to be from another maker that knows the curator. From then on it can be from a curator that knows you and your work.

It comes down to networking. Which is something I am just know doing. However, as yet it hasn?t yielded the results I?m after. But patience is the key here.


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Old 09-10-2004, 11:35 AM
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Yes an MA in the field of study would be an immense help J

The other piece of advice I can give you is starting local (a piece of advice I need to take myself). Even if your local museum doesn?t have pieces you are interested in see them anyway. Publish your results for others. And in that way you have built a relation with your local curator at very little cost to yourself. And then take his letter of introduction to the more distant collection that you really want to see.


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Old 09-10-2004, 11:49 AM
Jesse Frank Jesse Frank is offline
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Cool.

I'll give that a try.

Now that I think about it, My girlfriend is the paper conservator at the state archives here in Florida and she is in the same building as the archeaologists that work with alot of the spanish shipwrecks(I am currently thumping my forhead). And they have all sorts of early anglo american type axes, swords ect.

Dang, I am getting on the phone right now!
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Old 09-10-2004, 06:01 PM
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I have generally heard that most museums, especially if they are receiving government funds, are somewhat obligated to help relevant research. Actually, it was Vince Evans who told me that he had very good luck simply calling museums in GB and telling them what he did and what he wanted to see. (I think he also said that European museums were a little bit better than those in the US about it.) Anyway, I would hazard a guess that most people working in the kind of museums we like are also fellow history/warfare/weapon dorks who would be happy to share.


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Old 09-13-2004, 11:54 AM
Jesse Frank Jesse Frank is offline
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I just got off the phone with one of the guys down at the tallahassee museum and I have an invite to handle some of the stuff! t's awesom because they have some cool spanish rapiers and even though thats not my cup of tea it really gets me in the door.

Thanks for the advice!
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Old 09-13-2004, 11:59 AM
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Jesse,

That's great news. If you get any good stuff (photos, weights and mesures) on the Rapiers, could you forward some info my way. Don't get many rapiers out here on the left coast. And they do happen to be my cup of tea


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Old 09-15-2004, 02:25 PM
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Roger Gregory Roger Gregory is offline
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Over here you should get a good reception from The British Museum, The Museum of London and The Royal Armouries, you might even have success with The Wallace Collection and The Imperial War Museum. I am sure the trick is to know who to talk to.

If anyone is coming over the Pond to look at old metal I might have a name or two around...

Roger


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