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  #1  
Old 04-29-2015, 10:01 AM
SunSmith SunSmith is offline
 
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Books

I didn't see a thread for this, but if I am repeating a question let me know

I was wondering if any of you had recommendations for books on bladesmithing? I have a few older texts, but the methods are outdated -especially regarding heat treatment- and are more suited to creating anachronisms.

If there are any books containing modern bladesmithing techniques that you could recommend, I would appreciate it!
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Old 04-29-2015, 11:24 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I'm not sure what you mean by modern. A lot of us have gotten into bladesmithing because it uses a lot of basic hand tool. Of the ones that I have I would recommend The Master Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas Ed Caffrey has a good video that shows the use of a power hammer and a press. Both are good for learning the basics of heat treating.

Doug


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Old 04-29-2015, 12:20 PM
SunSmith SunSmith is offline
 
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By modern I mean with an updated understanding of steel. Some of my books seem to be dated in that regard.

Heat treating is my main area of concern - annealing, tempering, hardening. Most of the books I have recommend tempering by holding the blade over the coal, and as far as I have heard, that is not an effective method to get a good soak. The books I have also advocate edge packing, which I am fairly certain is an outdated idea.
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Old 04-29-2015, 01:12 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Well, if you get right down to it, coal is an outdated idea. There really isn't much to know about heat treating simple carbon blade steels which are the only steels you will be able to treat properly in a coal or propane forge simply because it is near impossible to do an extended soak at a precise temperature as required by alloyed steels.

But, of course, the majority of us do use a forge for heat treating our simple carbon steels and the process is deceptively simple. This is the process:

1. Use a simple carbon steel like 1084 or something very close to it and know what steel you have

2. Heat the steel until it becomes non-magnetic. This is the deceptive part: you need to catch that exact temperature point on the way up and then let it go a few seconds longer with the goal of attaining an additional 50 - 150 degrees and no more. Catching the temp after the fact and then trying to cool it back won't get the desired result.

3. As soon as that non-mag temp (plus a few) is reached quench immediately. Quench in a pro oil if you have it, or canola, peanut, hyfraulic fluid, or even ATF that has been warmed to about 100 F. Do NOT quench in used motor oil.

4. Temper as soon as the steel cools to about 100 F (warm to the touch, the blade stays in the oil until cool). Temper at 400F in a toaster oven for one hour , cool to room temp, and repeat the temper. Don't even think about trying to temper in your forge if you are seriously concerned about the metallurgical results of your heat treatment. Sharpen the blade and test the edge. If it is too brittle, raise the tempering temp 25 degrees and repeat the temper process. Keep doing that until the edge has the desired hardness.

That's it, the bare nuts and bolts of heat treating with a forge . After that, some guys develop all sorts of additional processes built on top of this to try to squeeze a bit more out of their steel and its anybody's guess as to whether or not they are fooling themselves but they enjoy it so I say go for it.

You will see formulas for heat treating more complex steels like O1 and 52100 in a forge and I'm not saying they don't make good blades that way. But, you seem like an intelligent person with a real interest in what is going on in the steel. For that reason, if you feel the urge to use those steels with a forge I suggest that you read the manufacturers spec sheet for the steel and decide it you can do as they direct with a forge. Those steels will make a good blade no matter how badly you treat them but the difference is night and day when you treat them correctly ...


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 04-29-2015 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 04-29-2015, 07:36 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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If you want to get more up to date, if that's what you want to call it, information on heat treating steel then go to KnifeDogs Forum > Knife Makers Area > Heat Treating Forum on KnifeDogs > sticky on top of page: Heat Treating Tool Box and print them out. Some of the entries are just telling the author to make a sticky out of it but there is a lot of information in it.

A lot of what you want is just learning your tools and your steel and what matches with each other. I'm with Ray. Stay under 84 points of carbon, that's 0.84% to avoid putting too much carbon into solution and creating elevated amounts of retained austinite. Higher carbon levels require longer soaks at relatively lower and more precise temperatures for longer periods of time. Get into complex tool steels or stainless steels and you're in a whole different ballpark. Some of the things that you will be told not to do with simpler alloys you have to do with them. Some of it is just knowing your alloy and how it likes to be treated.

Doug


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Old 04-29-2015, 08:15 PM
SunSmith SunSmith is offline
 
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Thanks, I appreciate the information. I was hoping for book recommendations though, simply because I enjoy using them as references. The current titles in my collection are dated enough to endorse edge packing, as I mentioned.
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:20 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Then let me recommend two books to you. Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist by John Verhoeven and Metallurgy Fundamentals by Brandt and Warner. Both are cliff notes on metallurgy and both are set up to be studied. They also compliment each other so I would recommend that you eventually purchase both of them.

As far as edge packing goes, that's an old wives', or old smiths', tale that won't go away. I think that it was originally linked to hardening and sharpening bronze blades and brought over to iron blades before heat quenching and tempering was developed and way before it was understood. So, yes, that's been around for a while. Too bad that it's still out there. I've even seen a YouTube video that showed it as part of a bladesmith's proprietary method for making a superior blade.

Doug


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Old 04-29-2015, 10:00 PM
SunSmith SunSmith is offline
 
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Thank you, those books look to be exactly what I was searching for! The book by Jim Hrisoulas also looks like a great one to have.

I thought the same thing about the transfer of the edge packing technique from bronze, it makes a lot of sense chronologically. I think another reason for it lingering around is that it adds the feeling of having a "secret" technique, and lends to the romanticized allure of knife forging- which is also why I was hesitant to dismiss it when I first began smithing.
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Old 04-29-2015, 10:56 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Actually, it would be the way to go if one was making a blade from wrought iron. There wouldn't be enough carbon in the wrought to get much hardening from quenching so the only way to increase the hardness much would be to add stress to the atomic links between the iron atoms by hammering the iron and distorting them.

Doug


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