MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > The Newbies Arena

The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-21-2015, 12:43 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
types of steel

Hey... I am just a lil curious about different types of steel. I have made one (and in process of 2nd) with old Nicholson files. I have a homemade forge but its not the best and i actually just ordered one should be here next week. So i figured i should use some legit steel too for the next project. Now from what i have been told so far is that 1084 is the best for a beginner. But i have seen alot of people saying 1080 is basically the same thing. True? also what about 1095? Or any other suggestions are welcome. Any one know any suppliers i looked a lil and the only one i found that had 1084 in stock seems to be alot more expensive that other place's that have it but just not in stock at the moment.


P.S. Also any one have any advice or tips on other house hold things (like files) that would have good high carbon steel? even if i would have to heat and shape it.

THANKS
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-21-2015, 12:54 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
Oh 1 more thing i forgot....Whats the deal with making a blade with Stainless people have told me it is not a good option but alot of knives i have got are stainless or "surgical"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-21-2015, 04:01 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
There is a Sticky thread at the top of the forum which lists all the most common sources for 1084 and similar steels. 1084 and 1080 are much the same but 1080+ and 1095 are probably best avoided at this point in your career. There are no common household items that you can count on being made from blade worthy steel. Lawnmower blades and automobile springs might make a serviceable blade but I would suggest you make a few knives from known steel before you tackle salvaged steel because such steel is not "free" even though you may think so at first.

Cutlery quality stainless makes excellent blades but it cannot be heat treated in a forge ....

PS

"Surgical" is just a tag that manufacturers use when they don't know exactly what type of cheap stainless is in the blade or when they do know and realize the smart move is not to admit what type steel it is. That doesn't always mean it is a bad blade but it probably does mean it isn't as good as we can make by a long shot . A scalpel - what you might call actual surgical steel - has to be able to get very sharp but it doesn't have to hold an edge very long as most are disposable and all it has to cut is very soft flesh. Rust would be bad on a scalpel so they use a stainless like the 300 series that contains no iron. From our point of view 300 series stainless is worthless as a blade but it works fine as a scalpel.......


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!







Last edited by Ray Rogers; 08-21-2015 at 04:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-21-2015, 04:29 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
THANKS Ray so i should try and stick too 1084 right? Now what makes "1080 and 1095" not good for me being a beginer is it just harder to work or HT temp. has to be exact? anything specific? also i am in the middle of grinding my second knife blade made from OLD nicholson files...what steel would that be close to some one told me its almost the same as 1095 but that source is not the most reliable so i am curious what you guys think. if it is close to 1095 wouldnt i want to get 1095 steel as i have already worked with the files or is 1084 just easier to work.any way i would appreciate it if you can give me a lil more info on the 1080 as that and 1095 is easier to find and a lil bit cheaper i will also check the stickies...thanks again
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-21-2015, 04:34 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
i forgot what do the letters in front of numbers mean for example i seen hr1095 and cra 1095
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-21-2015, 09:30 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
We generally do recommend 1084 to new guys for the purpose of learning to properly heat treat steel. 1080 is also good but 1080+ (or maybe its 1084+) and 1095 can be a problem for learning to HT because they have alloying elements that alter the way the HT should be done. For instance, 1084 and 1080 can be quenched in canola oil which is easy for most people to acquire without breaking the bank (usually important to newbies). But, 1084+ and 1095, because of the alloying elements, require a faster oil like professional quenching oil such as Parks 50 (not so cheap or easy to get). Some will use water for these steels but that usually results in warpage and cracked blades about 30% of the time and learning to deal with that stuff is not helpful when you haven't yet mastered the basic process.

Nicholson files were made from 1095 at one time. Maybe some still are, maybe not and I doubt Nicholson could tell you what they used now on any given file. The fact that you think you know how to HT 1095 or even a Nicholson file correctly may or may not be true. I can't judge that since I don't know what you did to figure out that you have done it correctly.

HR1095 means 'hot rolled', CRA1095 means 'cold rolled annealed'. Either one would work for our purposes if we want 1095 but I hope you'll stick with the 1084 as it makes our job a lot easier at this point ...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-22-2015, 12:59 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2,612
Another problem with 1095 is the high carbon content. Without proper temperature control too much carbon can be put into solution and you can develop a problem with retain austinite which can result in a loss of hardness. The retained austinite will also eventually convert to untempered martensite which will increase the brittleness of the blade. If you stick with 1080 or 1084 you can put every bit if carbon into solution when austinizing the steel and you won't end up with a problem.

Doug


__________________
If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-22-2015, 08:27 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
ok yeh i think i will stick with 1084 sounds much eisier for now i can always do 1080 or 1095 later....i do have one more question as i said i have been using charcoal to HT with a air compressor to get it real nice and hot (much hotter than i originaly thought) i tried making a propane one but it didnt come out so good. i just ordered a propane forge with 150,000btu burner. but it has a wool insulation blanket wraped on the inside but there is no refractory cement. do i need to add that or no? i read some where to either coat it or wear a mask so insulation don get in your lungs. if i do need to coat it will a "high temp. furnace cement" that i found in home depot be alright to use. or is there something better that i can pick up in home depot or a local hardware store....thanks if i should make a new post for this since it differnt topic let me know
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-22-2015, 09:59 AM
RedstickJP RedstickJP is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 124
Ray has a great DVD on the subject of forge building. But coating the wool in salinite works very well.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-22-2015, 10:22 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
Is the satinite something i can find locally or would i have to order? if the latter is there anything i can find localy for now
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-22-2015, 10:24 AM
Hunter10139's Avatar
Hunter10139 Hunter10139 is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Northern Alabama
Posts: 396
You can use 1080 now, its 1080+ that Ray was saying to skip. 1080 is what I started on and its fairly easy to get a decent heat treat even with the most basic heat treating setup.

Ray, would Aldo's 1084 be classified as 1084+ since there's a little chromium in it?


__________________
-Hunter
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-22-2015, 11:05 AM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: San Antonio Texas
Posts: 163
This is getting confusing for some people. Just to clarify, there really is no such thing as 1084+. But then again, there really is no such thing as 1080+, as this was a title recently given to a version of 80CrV2 by Chuck at AKS. IIRC

1080..... Carbon between .75-.88 and Mn .6-.9.....does not need fast oil no soak
1080+....also known as 80CrV2.....Carbon .82......Mn .42......sort of needs fast oil and soak
1084........NOT Aldo's....Carbon .8-.93 and Mn .6-.9....does not need fast oil no soak
1084......Aldo's......Carbon .88 and Mn .8 with some Cr and VERY small amounts of V and W....does not need fast oil but does (should) need soak.
1095......Carbon at .96 and Mn at .35....requires fast oil and soak due to extra carbon
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-22-2015, 12:18 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
OK so ....if i got this right...
1084 (not aldo) can be dipped in something like conala oil and just a quick dip.
1084 aldo's can be dipped in canola but needs to soak in oil (how long)
1080 can be dipped in canola just quick dip similar to 1084 (non aldo's) just slightly less carbon content
1080+ need "quenching oil" and soak
1095 needs "quenching oil" and soak

So basicly for what i can do right now i could use either 1084 or 1080 right? Now between those 3 options is one better than the other as far ass ease of working or quality of final product?

Lastly and advice on the cement question...as i said i am going to have a new forge soon but it only has the blanket insulation there is no coating on the top. Some have said the coating protects your lungs from fibers of insulation. I could always use a surgeon style mask to get by that. I also read it helps forge stay hot and helps gas consumption. I am trying to use something i can get locally (home depot or local hardware stores). I have 2 buckets of a "high heat furnace cement" that i got at home depot a while ago. It says the rating is 3000 degrees. Also the specifications say- "For use on fireboxes, boilers, stoves, ovens, flue pipes, kilns, chimneys,ducts, combustion chambers, masonry surfaces, and many other furnace and refractory applications".Can i use that? I know its probilly not the best but would it be good for now till i can get some money together and order something. (i would get something else now if i can find it at a local store) The only problem i see with the stuff i had (high heat furnace cement) is that it is VERY thick and would definitely be hard to apply to the soft insulation. But i figure there has got to be a way to thin it out either with water or something else (every thing can be thinned out with something) this is a very simple example but the theory applies to most....water based paint you thin with water oil based paint you thin with paint thinner... i know its a crude example but almost anything can be thinned one way or another THANKS again everyone
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-22-2015, 12:43 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ny
Posts: 1,438
oh i forgot what does it mean when it says 1080-1812 it says this in the "model colum" and in the name colum it just say 1080?? the site i found this on is http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/index...Path=87_924_73
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-22-2015, 01:00 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,840
I think Stuart explained the steel situation very well but Dtec misinterpreted some of it. The 'soak' that Stuart mentioned is not about how long the steel stays in the oil, its about how long the steel must be held at s specific temperature in order for it to achieve a full and proper transformation. Unfortunately, it is very difficult, if not impossible, for most of us to hold any specific temperature in a gas forge for any significant length of time and this is exactly why you can't HT stainless in a forge and why we try to avoid the so called "+" steels until we gain some practice at HTing. Aside from that, there is a great deal more to successfully HTing a simple carbon steel than you imagine at this point. We'll get to the details in due course.

The refractory cement you found at the hardware store can be used. Add a lot of water to some of it and mix it until it gets as thin as paint, then literally use a paint brush to paint it onto the wool.

Yes, at this point either 1080 or 1084 would be what you should use. There is no huge advantage of one over the other. The quality of the final blade will depend much more on your ability to get the HT done correctly that it will on which steel you end up with. Read through what Stuart wrote and try to follow what he's saying by applying these bits of information:

'Soak' means holding the steel at a specific temperature for an extended time, usually 10 - 30 minutes with no more than a few degrees of variance.

'Fast' oil refers to the thermal characteristics of the quenching medium. Nothing you find laying around the house or even in a hardware store will be 'fast' enough for alloyed steels.

Of course, you can heat any old steel to any old temperature or color based on all sorts of magical thinking and borderline witchcraft and the result will often be something that does a fair imitation of a good blade. Or, you can just get a piece of mild steel from the hardware store and shape it into a blade and for many cutting chores that too will seem like a decent blade. To get the most out of your blade requires an understanding of the heat treat process that results in the optimum (which can vary a bit according to the intended use of the blade) transformation of the crystalline structure of that particular steel. Ideally, we want repeatable results and high performance from our blades. Accomplishing that means keeping guesswork to a minimum...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1084, 1095, advice, anvil, bee, beginner, blade, carbon, cold, files, forge, grinding, heat, heat treat, homemade, knife, knives, made, make, making, post, project, stainless, steel, tips


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Explanation of steel types MSullivan The Newbies Arena 10 08-19-2015 04:36 PM
Types of Steel Danaan Henry The Outpost 6 01-17-2005 08:27 PM
damascus steel, steel types tim pion The Newbies Arena 13 12-24-2003 08:12 AM
Types of Steel Flo The Newbies Arena 3 08-20-2003 06:39 PM
types of ss Steve Milliet The Newbies Arena 4 03-27-2003 05:36 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:43 PM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved