How is a sheath frog used?

[Nat Bassett]

I've always put belt loops on my sheaths, but am intrigued by the little "frog" knob I see on some traditional big-knife sheaths.

Can someone explain to me how these things are used? Just finished HT on a large light 5160 bowie blade for myself for woods carry. Making decisions about handle, guard (utilitiy or fighting) and good carry system that will keep it out of the way - but HANDY. (knife's a big deal to me since I almost never make one for myself).

If anyone could fill me in on the frog accessory, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks Guys,

Nat.

[Crex]

The "Frog" is the actual wrap around piece. The "knob" thing......I can only imagine you are referring to the bullet stud that sticks out the front of the frog or the sheath to lock things in place or give a landing for securing the keeper strap. You will need to be more specific because these devices are used in several different applications.

See attached for some examples.
#1 - None of these have the bullet stud but still have a keeper strap
#2 - Has the bullet stud for the keeper or retention strap
#3 - No retention strap needed as these are large knives with enough weight forward to keep them in their sheaths securely.

Note: These are only examples of a few ways frogs can be incorporated in sheath styles, there are many other approaches/applications.

[Nat Bassett]

Yes Crex, I see the application you're referring to, with the knob serving as a kind of "proto-snap" to affix the retaining strap. Beautiful sheaths BTW!

Maybe I'm using the term "frog" incorrectly. From what you're saying the "frog" is that whole assembly, that part of that style of sheath.

What I'm wondering about are those lold, traditional-looking bowies sheaths that have the button, knob or whatever you want to call it, but usually are shown with no other straps. Usually these "knobs" are flatter. The sheath style is usually black leather and often has a a silver throat and silver tip and one of those knobs up at the top.

I imagine they might allow a gentleman in the antebellum era to just slip this sheath under the waistband, behind a long coat and have the button catch on the belt, holding it in place? Be a nice backup weapon in the era of black powder - and completely concealed.

But, I really don't know, that's why I'm asking. Here's a an old Sheffield as an example.

[sheathmaker]

Originally Posted by Nat Bassett

I imagine they might allow a gentleman in the antebellum era to just slip this sheath under the waistband, behind a long coat and have the button catch on the belt, holding it in place? Be a nice backup weapon in the era of black powder - and completely concealed.

But, I really don't know, that's why I'm asking. Here's a an old Sheffield as an example.

Nat, you are right on the money with the statement above. They are referred to as "Sash Sheaths" among other names. The stud or button could be very fancy custom made or today the more generic version is referred to as "Sam Browne Stud" and they are available at Tandy/Leather Factory under stock number 1309-02.

What many people refer to as a "Frog" is a combination of a mexican loop type horizontal strap with a belt loop attached and it is removable, held in place by the afore mentioned stud. As mentioned above another use for the stud is as a handy anchor for a retention strap. In the two photos below the first shows a "Frog" sheath with frog attached and a belt loop sheath with the stud retention strap anchor. The second photo shows the Frog removed and the remaining sheath is a "Sash Sheath". The studs on both of these sheaths is the 1309-02.

Hope this helps a bit.

Paul

[Crex]

Thanks Paul, I've done a few that way, but couldn't find any pics of them at the time.
These are on some miniatures I've done, same principle.

[Chuck Burrows]

Howdy Nat -
Well I had a long post written up and lost it..........

Anyway while it's true there are examples of original sheaths being carried under the belt or sash with just a stud and no frog (based on period photos at least), historically they were designed to be carried using a frog. The term sash sheath is as far as I can tell is a modern one first coined by historical reenactors some time in the mid-20th Century. So far no where in the pre-1900 primary documentation have I found the term sash sheath used and I am a voracious reader of such documentation.
Regarding photos one must be careful making solid conclusions based on the photos alone since often at least some of the gear in the photos was the property of the photographer, just like those Old West/Old Time photo studios of today do for their patrons - adding a knife or a a gun made one look fierce for the folks back home.
A good example of such a prop knife is the photo of Wild Bill dressed in buckskins with a big butcher knife stuck front and center under his belt with no sheath. As an experienced frontiersman and fighter, IMO there's no way Bill would have carried a knife that way except perhaps in extreme circumstances. Even Bill's famous Colts under a sash carry is more myth than fact, a myth based on a single period photo and some mistaken period writings. The thing is all of Bill's well known Colt handguns also include their accompanying holsters. He did wear a sash often, at least when in town (he was a real dandy), but the guns were in holsters under the sash, which in fact aids in keeping the holsters "locked" into position on the belt as well as keeping them from flopping around, something that can occur with the Slim Jim style holsters he used. As a renowned gunfighter keeping his guns in place and as solid as possible was real important.
Retention of one's knife, guns, and other gear was of primary importance back when they were necessities and if lost could mean your life or at the very least great hard ship. Plus one might be far from a source of supply.

For some good insight on period sheaths and carrying knives, Norm Flayderman's fantastic book, The Bowie Knife, has several examples of period sheaths including their leather frogs/belt loops. It also has several references to folks, mostly townies, carrying their knives concealed in vests, etc.
The problem with a lot of antique knives ans sheaths is that their leather frogs often wore out or were lost along the way, while the knife and sheath stayed mated up and then got retired or put in a collection.
Note also period sheaths that were specifically designed to be carried without a frog, such as those by Michael Price and the other San Francisco makers, etc (and again mostly for town folks) they use a long belt clip and not just a stud. South American Gaucho sheaths are another under the sash style, but again in all cases I've seen of pre-1900 sheaths, the retention is obtained by a flap or metal clip that is much larger than even the larger buttons.

I once tried wearing period style sheaths just stuck under my belt or sash with no other form of retention other than a stud and I know many other living historians who have also done so, but in the majority of cases once you got some experience (often a lost knife/sheath - been there done that) we learned to secure them to the belt or sash with a leather thong or similar. Not only does this keep the sheaths secure, but like Bill's sash over his holsters, it also keeps the sheath in place much better than just a stud. With just the studs, and especially on those sheaths with the metal throats and slick leather they tend to want to slide around, change angle, push up, etc. - not a good thing IMO. These days there is no way I would carry a Sheffield style metal throated sheath (BTW the metal most often used was nickel aka German silver on those sheaths) without a frog or other retention than just the button, especially when/if being active.

Also while the frog does make a handy spot to attach a retention strap, such straps are as far as I know a post 1900 addition, and then mostly on military gear and not so much on civilian gear until mid century or so. The leather frogs themselves though go back to at least the late 16th Century and were used for knives, swords, and bayonets.

anyway that's my take on the subject.........

[Crex]

See....hang around here long enough you can learn something. Thanks Chuck, great information.
I always thught the "Sash sheath" referred to the free trapper style that had the slot for the sash to come through and over the front of the sheath to keep in place. Similar to this style.