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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #16  
Old 10-04-2014, 03:40 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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I quote myself to support your statement WBE: "...there are extremes where a well forged knife will yield higher levels of performance under very specific circumstances." Curvature would be one such extreme.

As for the rest, I won't go there. The "which is a better performing blade" argument is older than I am.


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  #17  
Old 10-05-2014, 05:41 AM
WBE WBE is offline
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I don't mind going there. Unless one chooses to ignore proven metallurgical science, there is no argument.
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  #18  
Old 10-05-2014, 08:03 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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My 2 cents, if there is any advantage to be gained by forging the blade it takes a very good smith to bring it out. Proper forge theory must be followed. In my humble opinion, until one becomes fully competent in forge heat and hammer control, any advantage that might be gained will be offset double by mistakes. In other words, if one starts with a blank that already has proper grain size and no defects then they will make a superior blade than one who forged a blade with defects due to lack of skill, knowledge and experience.

Now that I've said that, 5160 is a very good alloy to learn to forge as it is very forgiving. Leave the higher alloy stuff alone until you master it. Get those books, and do your homework. Good luck.
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  #19  
Old 10-11-2014, 01:44 PM
ivance ivance is offline
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Andrew can you please recommend me a few good books that can help me? I will order them. Thank you very much in advance
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  #20  
Old 10-11-2014, 01:48 PM
ivance ivance is offline
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Andrew can you please recommend me some good books that can help me? Thank you very much in advance.
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  #21  
Old 10-11-2014, 05:36 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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ivance,

Go to the websites of any of the major knifemaking suppliers and look in their 'books and videos' sections.

Some titles to look for include:
The Wonder of Knifemaking - Wayne Goddard
How to Make Knives - Loveless & Barney
Step by Step Knifemaking - David Boye (with a grain of salt)
$50 Knife Shop - Wayne Goddard

There are some great videos on forging by Ed Caffrey.
There is an awesome video on sheathmaking by Chuck Burrows.

As for the forging vs. stock removal debate WBE, like I said, I am a stock removal guy only, and I used to see no difference. Then I had a series of very civil and two-way conversations with the ABS guys in the KCKA (mostly Steve Culver MS) and they explained the differences--subtle though they may be. I exited those conversations with the understanding I have now.

To your point about extremely curved blades performing better if they are forged, I would suggest that such a performance gain is incremental. That is to say: If a blade curved 'this much' gets x% better performance, then a blade curved half that much gets about half of x% better performance. Seems logical anyway. I could be wrong.

Nonetheless, I am always seeking enlightenment and education and believe that one should never just take another's word as fact (as I may have done with the ABS guys), so if it's not too much trouble, please provide a referrence to the data that makes your assertion "proven metallurgical science" and I will study it as well as contrasting published works and come to my own conclusions as you have. I appreciate it. Maybe I'll learn something this week.


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  #22  
Old 10-11-2014, 11:25 PM
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See the list Andrew Garrett posted? Well, he nailed it; get all of the books/videos he suggested or at least as many as you can.


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  #23  
Old 10-12-2014, 12:21 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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To the list of books and videos you might want to get try The Making of a Knife by the late Bill Moran. You can get the DVD from the ABS store. I also like Jim Hrisoulas' book The Master Bladesmith. He also has a two part DVD with plenty of information.

Doug


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  #24  
Old 10-12-2014, 10:18 PM
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Good additions, Doug!


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  #25  
Old 11-05-2014, 04:40 PM
ivance ivance is offline
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I found a book that was written by Jim Hrisoulas, it is called The Complete Bladesmith. Jim wrote that there are three ways of quenching the steel. Air quench, oil quench and water quench, now i know how to recognize tempering and hardening method for the steels that i want to use for making the blades. But i still need more of your advices, are the tempering and hardening methods that Jim explained in his book the same for heat treating knives that are made by grinding method? I hope you understand me. Thank you in advance.
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  #26  
Old 11-05-2014, 05:53 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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An alloy is that alloy. It doesn't matter if you are grinding or forging, each alloy will normalize, harden, and temper the same way.

Doug


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  #27  
Old 11-06-2014, 05:59 AM
WBE WBE is offline
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Andy, Please explain any advantages that you believe a forged blade would have. Other than directional occlusions or inclusions, which only matter in radical curvatures and are permanently set in the bar to the direction of the rollers at the mill. In that process, the grain is also set in direction, but the first time fully Austenitized, grains change to haphazard non-directional shapes that cannot be changed again unless rolled again. Hammering will not change their non-directional shape, and if it did, they would revert back to haphazard shapes when re-heated. You cannot close inclusions or occlusions by hammering. It would be folly to believe that one could out perform what the mill rollers have already done, by further hammering on the steel. You can change the direction of the bar, but not the actual grains. All else is controlled by heat treat. Now, by forging the belly curve of the blade, you might get some of the occlusions to follow the shape, but it would be doubtful that, that would make any significant changes to improve cutting performance. At best, it is thought by some, to be maybe, one or two percent improvement increase, but that would be very difficult to measure or realize in reality, and remains unproven.
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  #28  
Old 11-06-2014, 06:03 AM
ivance ivance is offline
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They normalize, harden and temper the same way, i understand that, but will that be the same quality like the knives that are made by forging?
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  #29  
Old 11-06-2014, 07:17 AM
WBE WBE is offline
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Simply put, yes. What differences would you think forging would make? Beating hot steel with a hammer makes no permanent changes beyond shape. It does not refine grain. It gives no extra strength. If not done correctly, it can weaken the steel. There are no mechanical advantages other than direction of occlusions. In the case of a typical knife blade, the direction is longitudinal with the bar already. You can change the direction of the bar, but not the occlusions. They will simply turn with the bar.
FACT. Grain has no direction and you cannot hammer it so that it does. Steel can be hot rolled for direction, but that changes with the first added heat after it has cooled. Grains do collect on the boundaries of occlusions and inclusions, forming a type of elongated unit that is advantageous in radical bends, but the grains themselves are not directional except as they come from the mill after rolling. Once re-heated, they become haphazard in shape much like flake board, and stay that way no matter how much hammering is done.
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  #30  
Old 11-10-2014, 04:04 PM
ivance ivance is offline
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So the results are completely the same, i did not know that, i thought the forging is better. Your information is quite useful. I will choose the grinding, can you give me some informations about heat treatment that can help me? My friend told me how to heat treat 5160 and O1 steels, he is a bladesmith.
He also told me that every factory has their own heat treatment for their steels because their steels have little difference then the others in other factories, i hope you understand me, i am writting this for an hour . Can you tell me how to recognize their normalizing, hardening and tempering? From every factory i buy the steel for grinding method.
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